• With the new Argon Scope mod bringing an increase of 285% crit chance increase combined with Point Strike, it can get weapons with 30%> above 100% crit chance which means they can achieve red crits. Examples include the Soma Prime and the Tonkor. What I want to ask is would it be worth using Argon Scope with Point Strike on a weapon with lower than 30% crit chance such as the Prisma Gorgon which would give it a crit chance of 57.75%, or would it be more efficient to replace Argon Scope with another damage mod to increase the overall DPS due to the fact it cannot achieve red crits. Thanks for reading and sorry if I got something wrong. 

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    • Depends on the rest of your build and the crit multiplier. According to my calculations on a build with Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital Sense and 4x 90% elemental mods, on a crit viable weapon with 2x crit multiplier, it will always be worth to exchange an elemental with Argon Scope (even at 10-15% crit chance). But depending on if utility mods are a fixed part of your build and the crit multiplier of the weapon, an elemental mod or Bladed Rounds might be better. Post an example weapon + build and i can tell you what is better.

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    • My Prisma Gorgon build before this event was Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital sense, Shred, Heavy Caliber (though I am also wondering whether Bladed Rounds would be better), and 2x 90% elemental. 

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    • On this build i would only consider exchanging Heavy Caliber or Shred as taking away a combined elemental combo greatly reduces bonus damage. With this the numbers should be as following:

      Your build: 24k burst, 16.4k sustained

      replace Heavy Cal with Argon Scope: 19.3k burst, 13.3k sustained

      replace Shred with Argon Scope: 24k burst, 17.8k sustained

      replace Heavy Cal with Bladed Rounds: 20.7k burst, 14.1k sustained

      replace Shred with Bladed Rounds: 25.8k burst, 19k sustained

      So only the last option would get you a higher burst dps and the second and last option yield a higher sustained dps.

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    • Uh, isn't the last option with Bladed Rounds better in both burst and sustained?

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    • You're right, i've overseen this lol. So last option best option.

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    • Shred is from 100 to 300% bonus damage tho. Don't forget that. It also enables yoou to deal damage thru walls which gives damage you would normally not be able to do. Also allows you to engage faster.

      Shred is life. Shred is love.

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    • If a weapon is only capable of yellow crits then:

      IBladed Rounds gives a higher DPS increase over Argon Scope without headshots on weapons as low as 15%/x2 base, but with headshots Argon can give more.

      If a weapon is capable of red crits:

      Argon Scope def gives a higher DPS with headshots because you have an additional chance to increase your multiplier by x2 and gain more headshot crits.

      Argon Scope tends to outperform Bladed Rounds on accurate crit based weapons. Use Bladed Rounds if you only yellow crit and esp if you're using a gun that has a hard time with headshots.

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    • I have to disagree on Argon Scope beating Bladed Rounds, in any case actually.

      The best possible condition is whenever a weapon reaches more than 100% with the help of Argon Scope but not with Bladed Rounds.

      The general formula for a crit modifier including headshots found here looks like this:

      Crit Modifier = (1 + Headshot Rate) * (1 + Crit Chance * (Crit multiplier * (3 - 2 / (1 + Headshot Rate)) - 1))

      And for Red Crits:

      Crit Modifier = (1 + 3 * Headshot Rate) * (1 + Crit Chance * (Crit Multiplier - 1))

      I'll use the following names for the variables above, adding x and y for varying Mods:

      Crit Modifier = mod, Crit Chance = x * cc, Crit Multiplier = y * cm

      The most optimal outcome for Argon Scope would be if we make headshots 100% of the time.

      mod1 = 2 * (1 + x cc * (2 y cm - 1)) = 4 x cc y cm - 2 x cc + 2 for x cc < 1. (Bladed Rounds)

      mod2 = 4 * (1 + x cc * (y cm - 1)) = 4 x cc y cm - 4 x cc + 4 for x cc > 1. (Argon Scope)

      To simplify, I'll assume that no other crit mods than Point Strike and Vital Sense are used alongside. That gives us x1 = 1 + 1.5 = 2.5 (Point Strike only), x2 = 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 = 3.85 (Point Strike and Argon Scope), y1 = 1 + 2 * 1.2 = 3.4 (Vital Sense and Bladed Rounds) and y2 = 1 + 1.2 = 2.2 (Vital Sense only).

      mod1 = 4 * 2.5 * 3.4 cc cm - 2 * 2.5 cc + 2 = 34 cc cm - 5 cc + 2

      mod2 = 4 * 3.85 * 2.2 cc cm - 4 * 3.85 cc + 4 = 33.88 cc cm - 15.4 cc + 4

      You can see that the factor before the cc cm term is larger on the first formula in addition to the negative term being smaller there. The + 4 on mod2 doesn't help much either, it can barely negate the former term (which gets larger by Argon Scope increasing Crit Chance). Therefore, any values for Crit Chance and Crit Multiplier will yield better results with Bladed Rounds.

      Since that's not really a proof, some hard numbers:

      cc cm Blade Argon

      0.1 2.0 8.30 8.0060 (mod1 formula for both, neither reaching >100% crit)

      0.3 1.5 15.8 14.626

      0.3 3.0 31.1 29.872

      0.5 2.0 33.0 30.180 (mod2 formula for both, either reaching >100% crit)

      Now kill me and my flawed math attempts D:

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    • ^ uh.. what just happened there? Was there an answer or was that just a way to kill this topic?

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    • The question was if Argon Scope is worth it on weapons with less than 30% crit chance and I proved Bladed Rounds gives you more DPS in any case, so I don't see how the answer 'kills' the topic. Unless you mean like people are afraid of math and actually looking into things but I highly doubt that on here. DPS simply is a number- and math-based topic; it can't be helped.

      I see a lot of people giving advice on this topic but I can't really see on what these are based. Perhaps I calculated everything wrong but until someone points out the mistake I see no reason to use Argon Scope over Bladed Rounds.

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    • I tried to post example of my findings but after 20min or typing the forum wouldn't post, so I gave up, if this post works I'll endit in the rest.

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    • @Rngd444 haven't actually checked your math (might gonna do it at some point) and it's true that crit. multiplier mods are generally better than crit. chance mods (not considering headshots).

      I just wanted to add this: crit. chance is generally the more desirable stat because it makes damage more consistent and there will generally be less overkill damage. So if the values are close as close as 8.3 vs. 8.006 in your first example, I'd still go for Argon Scope myself.

      Of course, with fast firing low damage per round weapons like the Soma, I'd prefer Bladed Rounds again because the damage spikes even out over multiple hits.

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    • You're absolutely right about consistency and overkill damage, those calculations naturally are a pure DPS perspective. I have to say though that those arguments only work for one very specific time frame - before that time you'll do enough damage even with non-crits and after that interval you usually have to shoot multiple times anyway. So for me personally it's still Bladed Rounds at all times.

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    • Alonetenno its ok to be wrong dont flip out kiddy

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    • Im Alonetenno because i have no friends

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    • Argon scope and Bladed Round performance is solely depends on what weapon you install it into. You dont put argon on Synoid Simulor even though you build it crit, but you put Bladed round instead. Why? cause it clear mobs quick, and you have to be either genius or retarded to aim with the simulor for red crit lol.

      The way I see it, if the weapon is originally a crit based and possible of reaching red crit zone, use Argon. If you only keep yellow crit, Use Bladed Round, or just add another dmg like 3rd element or something. But still, it really depends on what type of primary you using. Interestingly, I ran a 2x 90% element vs 1 argon with a punchthrough for vectis prime charged chamber build, agaisnt lvl 100 heavy gunner. Guess which 1 lose? Yep. Argon Scope took 11 second, 2x element only took 5 second.

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    • Ubaied Hamzah wrote:
      The way I see it, if the weapon is originally a crit based and possible of reaching red crit zone, use Argon. If you only keep yellow crit, Use Bladed Round, or just add another dmg like 3rd element or something.

      That's a common misconception. Red crits aren't as awesome as people want them to be; Bladed Rounds will always yield more DPS. Guaranteeing crits can be beneficial on some weapons (e.g. Rakta Cernos) to sustain your damage output but you won't use it for the 34.75% chance to red crit. On Dread, you actually lose both overall DPS and sustained damage by using Argon Scope since Bladed Rounds will affect every shot while Argon Scope still can't guarantee level 1 red crits, thus no consistency.

      Ubaied Hamzah wrote:
      Interestingly, I ran a 2x 90% element vs 1 argon with a punchthrough for vectis prime charged chamber build, agaisnt lvl 100 heavy gunner. Guess which 1 lose? Yep. Argon Scope took 11 second, 2x element only took 5 second.

      Just to be sure, you used no combined element let alone a single one in the second instance? You should never do that, like really, never. Elemental damage is the only reason why we can actually do at least a tiny bit of damage against armored high level targets. Puncture alone can't do the job against Alloy Armor.

      By the way, on the Simulor topic, I'd like to redirect you here (both of them have no practical use on it).

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    • Argon scope is generally bad. It is something to consider only if it allows you to go above a crit cap(for example going from 150ish to 220ish crit chance). Even then, as bladded round is arguably better(hence procs also on HS mainly) you won't have room for it. Even on Synapse that has huge crit chance you have slightly better result using a 2nd ele mod and a way better QoL.

      With the introduction of Riven mods, having extremly potent riven mods on your weapon may create an incentive for using only crit mods for the spare slots (are these scale usually better the more stats you have). (anyway argon scope always last)

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    • @Rngd444 is absolutely correct here.

      I'm a little late on this discussion, but I thought I'd round it out with the rest of the applicable math.

      It can be proven that a weapon's damage T, factoring in crit chance C and crit multiplier D, can always be reduced to C(D-1) + 1, regardless of red crit level. Basically:

      T = ((C-X+1)(XD-X+1) + (X-C)(XD-D-X+2)), X-1 < C <= X
      = XCD - XC + C - XXD + XX - X + XD - X + 1 + XXD - XD - XX + 2X - XCD + CD + XC - 2C
      = CD + 1 - C
      = C(D-1) + 1

      Where X is your crit chance as a decimal. It comes out the same if we assume a less than 100% crit rate, which is a more basic calculation we can all agree on:

      T = (CD + (1-C)*1), 0 <= C <= 1
      = CD + 1 - C
      = C(D-1) + 1

      In factoring in Argon Scope vs. Bladed Rounds, we can set up an inequality to test. Since the bonuses from those mods are additive with Point Strike and Vital Sense, and we can assume we'll always be using those, we'll have to account for those modifiers as well, so the ratio will come out properly in the formula.

      T = 2.5C(2.2D-1)+1

      AS = 3.85C(2.2D-1)+1

      BR = 2.5C(3.4D-1)+1

      If we test the conditions for one outperforming the other:

      2.5C(3.4D-1)+1 > 3.85C(2.2D-1)+1
      8.5CD - 2.5C + 1 > 8.47CD - 3.85C + 1
      0.03CD > -1.35C
      0.03D > -1.35
      D > -45

      Basically, we assume that BR will perform better. After simplifying, it turns out that inequality holds true for all values of D (crit multiplier) larger than -45. Since all crit multipliers are positive, BR will perform better in all situations. You can replace the coefficients with instead the % increase of damage the mods will give you (you'd divide the sum by the value with only PS or VS), leaving the unaffected stat with a coefficient of 1, and you'll get D > -99 (which is -45 multiplied by the 2.2x boost from VS). The implication is the same.

      But what about the headshots? Will they make a difference? A headshot deals double damage, and a headcrit will double that again (in addition to your critical multiplier). We can alter our original damage formula to account for this:

      4CD + (1-C)*2

      Critical headshots dealing 4x damage and regular headshots dealing 2x damage. If we repeat the above inequality:

      AS = 2*3.85C(2*2.2D-1)+2

      BR = 2*2.5C(2*3.4D-1)+2

      2*2.5C(2*3.4D-1)+2 > 2*3.85C(2*2.2D-1)+2
      5C(6.8D-1) > 7.7C(4.4D-1)
      34CD - 5C > 33.88CD - 7.7C
      0.12D > -2.7
      D > -22.5

      We get the same thing, except our value is cut in half. This actually comes from the 2x headcrit multiplier (which we'll see further down). SInce it's still a negative number, though, the implications are the same. We can generalize this for arbitrary headcrit and headshot multipliers:

      X = headcrit multiplier, Y = headshot multiplier

      The damage formula then becomes:

      (XY)(CD) + (1-C)*Y

      SImplified to:


      Repeat the inequality:

      AS = Y(X(3.85)C(2.2)D-3.85C+1)

      BR = Y(X(2.5)C(3.4)D-2.5C+1)

      Y(8.5XCD-2.5C+1) > Y(8.47XCD-3.85C+1)

      Look familiar? This unsurprisingly simplifies to:

      XD > -45

      Which explains the -22.5 when X=2. However, this will never change the implications of the inequality. Weapon crit multiplier D and enemy headcrit multiplier X will always both be positive numbers, so their product will also always be positive, and thus greater than the negative on the other side. Meaning, Bladed Rounds is indisputably better DPS-wise when you crunch the numbers.

      You could point out that if your weapon will consistently crit at some level, then there's no need for the regular headshot multiplier to be factored in. Indeed, you'd multiply both terms instead by the headcrit multiplier X. Since that will then end up being present in every term of the inequality, though, that's algebraically equivalent to not applying it at all.

      The reason why all this happens is actually really intuitive, and requires much less algebra than shown here. It's because of the values relative to Point Strike and Vital Sense. In damage calculations, your crit chance and multiplier are multiplied together as the same term. Each factor is increased by different relative amounts with these mods. BR matches the 120% of VS, while AS falls slightly short of PS's 150%. 3.4/2.2 > 3.85/2.5, albeit by a super tiny margin.

      As a corollary to the above, ignoring PS and VS actually reverses the result. This is because the values would both start at 100%, and AS has a high percentage number on the card. Re-evaluating our above inequality with this assumption leads to D < -9. That obviously can't happen in game and doesn't make sense, so we've disproved BR's superiority in that case with a contradiction.

      TL;DR: Bladed Rounds will always win, because it gives the larger bonus relative to the main mod for its stat (Vital Sense).

      It's not by a lot, though, so if you can narrow your min to max damage range with more consistent crits from Argon Scope, that will probably be more beneficial in practice. As for either of them vs. an elemental mod, the numbers will always change depending on your existing loadout and the type and level of the enemy you're fighting, so it's not worth trying to calculate by hand.

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    • Oh boi, impressive. I remember doing some similar inequality calculations and also ended up with some negative result which I was then too stupid to interpret, hah (while it is pretty obvious). I'm using both of them less and less nowadays; on the one hand because of Rivens and on the other because I simply don't want to zoom all the time anymore. Since Void isn't the focus anymore, Primed Bane is the better choice; it outperforms Argon Scope in any case and Bladed Rounds for anything below 30% crit chance.

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    • I tried to compare argon scope and bladed rounds but came to a completely different conclusion...

      Assumption: all shots made are headshots, at least one enemy has been killed in the last 9 seconds. In all setups, both vital sense and point strike are used alongside either argon scope or bladed rounds.

      So your average damage per shot should go by this formula:

      2 (headshot) * Damage before headshot/crit * Average Crit Damage Modifier * Average Crit Headshot Modifier

      Your average crit headshot Modifier is this: (1+crit chance) (so at 100% crit chance you have x2, at 0% crit chance you have x1 ), capped at 100% (or 1), because orange and red crits from getting any more crit chance do not affect this multiplier vs normal yellow crits. (If you don't know what this is, normal headshots are double damage while crit headshots are quadruple damage * your crit damage)

      Average crit damage Modifier is this: (1+ (crit chance * (crit damage-1 ))), (at 0% crit chance or 1x crit damage, your multiplier is always x1, at 50% crit chance and 2x crit damage, your multiplier is x1.5)

      I plugged these into a graphing service and got weird results:

      It seems argon scope is actually better with low base crit chance and bladed rounds is with low base critical damage.

      Where have I gone wrong with my calculations? This seems pretty counterintuitive

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    • A Lone Tenno
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