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  • Hi there, recently I was approached by a user regarding blogs and policies and I want to get everyone's consensus before doing any drastic.

    The issue is detailed in Thread:710986.

    Basically the issue is that you have created three consecutive blogs that pushed some recently made blogs out of the list in the Homepage, including a blog by User:GreenMoriyama. As per our policy, users should avoid making consecutive blogs because of this exact reason. While this has nothing to do with your blogs' content, which are in fact quite outstanding, may I suggest consolidating them into one blog, so that other recent blogs can have a fair chance to appear in the Homepage?

    Thanks!

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    • Quoted from the linked thread, to let you know in some detail what I think:

      In redards to consecutive blogs, the loophole I refer to (in my previous message) is how the blog policy page specifically says "Please avoid blogging multiple consecutive instances of similar blogs..." Because of this one word, it means that Pelia didn't directly breach the policies, unless two guides on different warframes are considered "similar" (which can be arguable/subjective).

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    • I'm certain that this occurrence will happen rarely if ever again. User:Pelia had written his or her three guides in the user namespace before I had decided to push for guides to be placed in the user blog namespace (for the commenting potential). I imagine that after seeing my post, Pelia chose to move it to a User Blog in order to have comments enabled on his or her guides.

      I don't think there needs to be any additional policymaking, but just a workaround solution for this isolated case. If something similar could happen in the future, maybe the policy's wording could change so that people would spend a few days between moving each of their pages into user blogs.

      I don't think asking Pelia to consolidate the blogs makes sense, because the blog posts are to stay as accessible guides from their respective Warframe Guide categories. A better solution might be to repost User:GreenMoriyama's blog from scratch in a day or two, so that everyone gets a fair share of time.

      I think we might want a longer-term solution for blog posts. A central directory of them would serve us well.

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    • For reasons Grunni explained, I'd refrain from consolidating my blogs along with the fact it would create a vast body of text, my layout of illustrations is uneven and adapted towards a more splintered format, keeping the guides short, comprehensive for purpose of giving some starter tips, leaving the rest of the details and variations up to player's creativity. Reposting Moriyama's blog would be a better solution.

      I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused and ascertain you the sole cause of this occurence is retroactive application of the altered blog policy to my guides that were already present in my namespace. While I have another guide ready to be transferred here from Steam, I will withhold its publishment for a day or two to allow Moriyama or other bloggers to get their dose of stagelight and occupy myself by transferring the melee guide unto Steam.

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    • Normally, I would have deleted consecutive blogs as it's against our policy. But I believe this is just a coincidential one-time issue caused by an inconvenient time of events. Let it slide.

      As Grunni mentioned, it is just a coincidence that Pelia had already written three guides before the decision of blogged guide was set. Should I have written few guides, I would have posted them all on the blogs too.

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    • Funny Story. If you move a pre-existing page into the blog namespace, it'll use the pages original creation date in its blog categorizing and can skip the "recent blog activity" w/e thingy box automatically. It happened when I was drafting my last weapon infobox blog and I was tearing my hair out trying to figure out why it wasn't showing up anywhere.

      If we want the traffic to these guide blogs to be driven by the page they're linked from, I feel like this could be a viable solution. Just move the blogs into the proper namespace rather than copy + pasting the content to create a new blog.

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    • That would mean you wouldn't get featured on the Recent feed altogether, wouldn't it? While it mightn't be such an issue in my current case, blogs I'd create later on by moving the page would not get featured. And since I'm stocking guides up in userspace, it could pose a problem.

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    • But if guide traffic is supposed to be driven by traffic from the pages they get linked in, they don't need to be featured anyway. They have a unique situation where they're linked in pages and have a longer life span because they never really drop off in traffic so long as the article stays relevant.

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    • This occurence that we're responding to was caused by pre-existing guides that were transferred retroactively. Later on, the guides will come in at a quite hindered pace, making their feature on the Recent feed useful and still viable, at least in other cases, I already stocked up 2 guides in userspace that I shall convert to a blog in a fashion that only one of them is visible there at a time. I've talked about it with Grunni on Thread:711694.

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    • I mean, the guides aren't really blogs... we're just using the blog space for the comments and protected editing space. I don't see why they need to get featured at all, none of the previous weapon build guides ever got featured anywhere.

      I'm just offering a solution to bypass the featured blog module entirely since they don't really need to be featured. The only reason I forced my weapon infobox blogs to get featured were because I needed the PSA for people to know to update them. But other blogs that are just for documentation I leave old and soggy and never featured, but rather just linked to whatever content they were pertinent to.

      @Chicken/other admins, can those modules be manipulated with cat's? Isn't that how the administration module works? We could probably remove the blog cat from guides that are in the blog namespace and the module might not find it?

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    • If it ever comes to have a guidespace that allows for protection and commenting, I wouldn't be against it. The way things are right now though, I'm still posting the guides as blogs via current method especially for comments and protection. Frankly, so far, the only reason that new guidespace should be made to clear up the blog feed is me. We're yet to see more users that would upload guides more often than, say, twice a week.

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    • Clearly we're exploring new territory with guides, so these decisions/ideas of how things should work aren't set in stone and will need more people's input and a general consensus on how we should handle it. Perhaps others will disagree with me and think that guides should get the initial boost in traffic from being featured.

      If we are going to agree to allow blogs to be featured, then I have no problems with the rules set in place right now to throttle the flooding of blogs being featured.

      But, I don't agree with the fact that guides should be featured at all (just casting my vote, not setting this in stone). All previous guides (in the form of "builds" for mod loadouts of weapons) were never featured and attained all of their traffic via the page that their content was pertinent too. I believe that the new guides we are trying to introduce should attain traffic in the same manner.

      1. Featured articles often attract a lot of attention just based off of the title and people looking for a fight. Especially over controversial topics such as "lets make hydroid viable!" or "How to make Rhino God-Tier!" Because of this nature, the initial traffic for a blog may be flooding with controversial debates rather than responses pertinent to the guide itself, such as "how do I use this" or "here are some suggestions"
      2. Traffic obtained from linking the blog to the traffic it was linked to will draw in a reader who is already interested in the topic. The people viewing the guide will already be looking for more knowledge and willing to learn rather than be critical or argumentative.
      3. Many of our guide writers are going to be new to writing guides, new to editing in wikia, and in general pretty bad at creating a professionally looking page all around. There isn't a huge population of competent web developers, writers, and video game players wrapped up in to a god-send guide-writing prodigy. Because of this, sheltering new guide writers from unnecessary controversy attracted from their guides being featured will allow them to refine their skills before taking on the public's full force.

      Perhaps a middle ground might be to bypass being featured at first, and once approved by an admin (and/or grunni since he seems to be the "head of guides") then we could re-publish the guide so it will become featured. I just don't like the idea of every casual controversial guide hitting the featured module since the "god-tier" rhino blogs have come time and time again, every one hitting upwards of 200 comments of wasted breath and controversy.

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    • I'd like the no. 2 to be rephrased since I do not exactly understand its message.

      What I did overlook up to this point though is that truly not anyone is cut out for handling continous waves of criticism (Rhionhi took quite a dive against every of my guides) that can be inconstructive at times. People often see a featured article as a place to show off how nastily they can take someone down, regardless of content. On the other hand, as just as Grunni or any of the admins can be, they shouldn't decide if a guide is featured or not as I think the wish and will of the authors to spread their word should be respected.

      While I would still employ traffic control especially if the current layout is to stay for another while, I would leave the ultimate decision and extent of the article's promotion up to the author. After all, bloggers on this Wikia could have also put their thoughts in their userspace, but they didn't. It's proudly hanging on the homepage and they're facing the consequences, good or bad. For the least, those possible consequences could be covered in a Styling Guide (I heard Regis is making something like a Guide guide), as well as the category pages that already introduce guide making to inform beginerr writers on what kind of feedback could they expect.

      This all could be a bit easier to handle though if a specific, particularly featured namespace was created. Steam's guides do not just cower below the game hubs waiting for a spelunker to dig them up. They have their own Community category that nearly spans a part of the domain. Each individual game hub has a tab dedicated to just Guides.

      I'd suggest a separate feed would be created for guides, having both Recent and Popular feed of their own. I was also thinking about having a list of most popular guides for a given weapon/warframe hang out in the respective articles of the item/warframe, but I fear that would make the page cluttered a bit too much.

      You may think something like Guides doesn't need promotion, but everything does. No matter if it's commercial, non-commercial, entertaining or educating, people need to know the option is there. I completely postponed adding any further guides on Wikia since the way they were wired into the relevant pages before Grunni allowed them on Blogs, people wouldn't know they exist. I had troubles directing people to them more than I could turn a blind eye to.

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    • Wall of text inbound to rebuttal pelia's last message. Feel free to read for some context, but in reality this debate needs to calm down until it becomes more than 2 people and we can hear where some others stand.

      Pelia wrote:
      bloggers on this Wikia could have also put their thoughts in their userspace, but they didn't. It's proudly hanging on the homepage and they're facing the consequences, good or bad. For the least, those possible consequences could be covered in a Styling Guide (I heard Regis is making something like a Guide guide), as well as the category pages that already introduce guide making to inform beginerr writers on what kind of feedback could they expect.

      The big difference is that most blogs and other user pages are generally orphaned pages. Nothing links to them and therefor their lifespan is only as long as they are featured or a hot topic. As soon as they're no longer either, the blog dies off.

      As for guides and other user pages that are linked into articles, their lifespan will be as long as the article is popular. They are nor orphaned pages and therefor will have continuous traffic coming in. This is why the two are incomparable.

      Pelia wrote:
      This all could be a bit easier to handle though if a specific, particularly featured namespace was created. Steam's guides do not just cower below the game hubs waiting for a spelunker to dig them up. They have their own Community category that nearly spans a part of the domain. Each individual game hub has a tab dedicated to just Guides.

      We're limited to only 3 unique namespaces per wiki, and since the blog namespace already has all of the features we need (locked to admin/auther editing only, comments enabled), I see no reason in creating new ones.

      A long time ago we tried to come up with several unique namespaces to use, but in the end we found solutions around them. We should only use a unique namespace if absolutely necessary, and that's more of a "background standardization thing planning for the future and using our resources wisely" thing than anything else.

      Pelia wrote:
      I'd suggest a separate feed would be created for guides, having both Recent and Popular feed of their own. I was also thinking about having a list of most popular guides for a given weapon/warframe hang out in the respective articles of the item/warframe, but I fear that would make the page cluttered a bit too much.

      I mean, sure why not it could be done, but I'll probably disagree with this in the next section:

      Pelia wrote:
      You may think something like Guides doesn't need promotion, but everything does. No matter if it's commercial, non-commercial, entertaining or educating, people need to know the option is there. I completely postponed adding any further guides on Wikia since the way they were wired into the relevant pages before Grunni allowed them on Blogs, people wouldn't know they exist. I had troubles directing people to them more than I could turn a blind eye to.

      Fundamentally, wiki's are designed to report information on a specific item/topic/etc. from a neutral perspective, and pretty much stick to only reporting that thing. While outside sources may be documented somewhere or have their place in the wiki, it isn't really the purpose of the wiki to do so, and this is held to an extreme for user made content.

      User made content is by no means neutral, is not part of documenting the original piece of content, and therefor should be mentioned when appropriate, but not documented as part of the wiki itself. A wiki is meant to report on the game itself, not the meta the players have created throughout the game unless this information is hosted within the game itself (such as if the codex suddenly started saying how players used a weapon). The notes/tips and tricks sections we have on every page are already pretty taboo compared to how most other wiki's report on games because that is literally all user made content. I would be extremely opposed to directly promoting user made content in the wiki over the raw documentation of the actual game.

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    • Brizingr5 wrote:
      Perhaps others will disagree with me and think that guides should get the initial boost in traffic from being featured.

      Pelia wrote:
      You may think something like Guides doesn't need promotion, but everything does. No matter if it's commercial, non-commercial, entertaining or educating, people need to know the option is there.

      I agree with User:Pelia. Information gains value only if there are people who use it, and the advertisement of it helps justify the efforts of the authors themselves. We wouldn't make any changes to the wiki if we knew that zero people would be reading it; for many of us, we're only here on the wiki because we know that we're helping people out by researching original information, centralizing its distribution, and passing it on through instructive language.

      I don't think the Recent Blogs module needs to be the avenue of promotion for guides, but it is currently the most appropriate option for the rate at which guides are being produced, the special case of Pelia's recent three being a conspicuous exception.

      Brizingr5 wrote:

      1. ~
      2. ~
      3. ~

      The inclusion of both userspace and blogspace articles into the guide categories means that authors uncomfortable with comments can choose the former and the ones looking for criticism can choose the latter. I think it's on the onus of each author to appropriately deal with the level of controversy that they invite in with their namespace choice and guide content—egregious flaming is a violation of the wiki's rules of conduct anyway, so we can report and remove anything overtly destructive.

      Brizingr5 wrote:
      once approved by an admin (and/or grunni since he seems to be the "head of guides")

      <_< *sputter, sputter* I began the initiative to feature user guides as a formal addition to the wiki pages, so I view myself responsible for managing the new problems that the project can introduce. By acting as the liaison between the administration and guide writers, issues become organized and easily handled. I run everything by User:ChickenBar before making general posts about guide-making policy, so a more apt title would be "Secretary of Guides".

      EDIT: This post was written without seeing Briz's most recent response. That'll have to wait for another time.

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    • Hmm... Interesting Topic. Many of all of your points are right and wrong in a way that suits everyone.

      Having blogs helps show them dirctly and noticed instantly. I would have made a single blog post and linking it to my other builds if I were you Pelia.

      Note: I will have to revise this and add more as I quickly skipped and read small bits of the posts and responds here and there.

      Lets see if Chicken would like to make a tab for Featured Guides on the Homepage. Or a better way to advertise them to players on the Wiki. Anyhow, we will work this out someway.

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    • The single blog posting would cause my yet unposted guides to not have comments available. At best, people would have to consolidate comments to all the guides into that one blog post which will likely cause confusion over which guide is being commented specifically. I do assume good faith. I also, however, assume a measure of user's simplicity.

      Grunni wrote:

      [...] the special case of Pelia's recent three being a conspicuous exception.

      That exception partially persists, I am still stacking up guides in userspace :D Currently two, another one is underway. Internet back home is down, so I have all the time in the world to write guides. Currently, I need to access it from college. I'll just post one by one as they dissappear from the feed.

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    • Pelia wrote: The single blog posting would cause my yet unposted guides to not have comments available. At best, people would have to consolidate comments to all the guides into that one blog post which will likely cause confusion over which guide is being commented specifically.

      Just rename the user page into the blog namespace and they'll keep the original creation date, most likely bypassing the featured blog module.

      Either that or try removing the blog cat and it won't pick it up either.

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    • That reintroduces the issue of introduction to the Wikia community which we already discussed. My opinion on it is unchanged.

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    • If I may ask to Pelia, was the two warframe guides you posted guides made before the new setup or was it one you had constructed after?

      All I just wish is that no one dominates the "new blogs" thread, even if there is no evil intention out of it. Once-every-third-day was a thought, but it seems this discussion has expanded out to a whole different idea...somewhat. I did not wish to pin you as someone who had ignored the "rules" and hoarded the attention, if that ever came to your mind.

      EDIT: Until then, as per Pelia's suggestion, I'll re-release the same blog (probably delete the old one) with a few tweaks and see how things go. I'll still stand in this discussion as it is still an important matter in the cases.

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    • Nobody is targeting pelia. We're just pioneering a new part of the wiki and trying to figure out how best to handle it for all contributors, not just pelia who brought up the original issue.

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    • GreenMoriyama wrote:
      If I may ask to Pelia, was the two warframe guides you posted guides made before the new setup or was it one you had constructed after?

      They were all made before the new setup was introduced and were posted retroactively.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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