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  • Darthmufin
    Darthmufin closed this thread because:
    Old thread that has run its course
    05:57, January 21, 2020
    • obvious shitpost, this is just trying to spark the conversation about exclusives again, can we please close this down?

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    • shut it down goyim! 

      I dunno though I'd be keen for an excalibur prime version 2 lol only about 1% of their player base will even give a shit if they handed it out, give them a excalibur unique skin or something lol no player should have the best excalibur because they paid money first

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    • It will be bad for DE. Excalibur Prime will NEVER be released again. Please refer to one of the 60,000 other threads on this topic for more details of why.

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    • ok i'll explain this instead of posting "ur dum lol" or "stop talking about excalbur p!".

      when the founders pack was released, it was advertised as a way to kickstart warframe; to incentivize funding they had to add a few items that would remain exclusive to the pack, these being excalibur prime, lato prime and skana prime. those who paid for the founder pack brought items that were to never be obtainable ingame or ever again.

      at the time, it worked great; those who liked warframe were able to show their support and allow the game to grow with some cool goodies along with it. there's no doubt that it helped warfame become the game it is today.

      now here's the problem; because of DE's promise to make these items "exclusive" and to "never be obtainable ingame", they cannot release the pack again without breaking this promise and upsetting founders. theoretically, if they did rerun the founders pack today, the original founders would be pissed off as their exclusive items are now being given out again; it would however be the best selling prime access for a while as countless people want those founders items, especially excalibur mains/players who want the stat bonus, gold appearance and death orb 250 energy bonus.

      de has repeated hundreds of times that they have no intention of making founders items available again because of what i have talked about above. the only way they might do it is if they absolutely require money or get brought out by a company that forces their hand.

      now lets talk about the console editions, excalibur prime, lato prime and skana prime do not exist in the console versions of warframe, a console founder pack was never run and those who moved their founders accounts over to the console edition of the game did not have those items carried across with them. i could see them running a console founders access so that these items exist in that version of the game, but don't get your hopes up.

      lets not avoid the elephant in the room here; we've all heard about the chinese version of the game that is selling the founders items for the chinese servers (currently lato prime was last on sale); the chinese version is ran by another company and DE has very little control over business decisions over there. anything brought on the chinese version of warframe cannot be transferred over to the main game, so no damage there.

      so for right now, excalibur players are hoping that excalibur umbra will fill that prime gap for their favourite frame. we don't know when excalibur umbra will be released, but it's supposedly sometime during 2017 with a new cinematic quest to be bundled with him

      tl;dr - excalibur prime and the founders items will never return because of a promise DE made back when the founders pack was being run. it's sad for those who didn't know about warframe at the time or couldn't afford the pack, but we have to accept the fact that we won't see him being available again.

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    • It wasn't just a "promise" they made. Founders signed a legally binding contract that gives them the items with exclusivity. The contract was signed digitally upon processing of payment for the founders pack. That means that part of the rights to the intellectual property has effectively been taken away from DE and given to the founders. DE can in fact be sued in a class-action lawsuit for violating contracts over intellectual property rights, says so right in their terms. It is not something that would simply go to mitigation courts as some people claim. Thus, DE doesn't bring it back because they are legally bound to a contract. Court costs are hell to deal with for game companies, and DE would have their back against the wall in this due to the contract's existence.

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    • Also, any lawsuit from the founders might give rise to some uncomfortable examination of the EULA and the enforceability to some of the more untested aspects of it.

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    • I've actually done some research in this, and there actually wasn't a legal contact signed at all. The best that founders could do, is take DE to court for false advertising. Fortunately, this most likely wouldn't hurt DE financially, but it'd tarnish their reputation. So Excalibur Prime can't be rereleased, because not only would DE be going back on their word, but their word from that point on would mean nothing to their consumers.

      Another point, the people who get mad and say that they can take legal action, they wouldn't be able to do much at all if anything. All they'd get in the end is a refund.

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    • There was (arguably) a valid and binding contract under Canadian law - even if not in writing. But its enforcement, damages and any other relevant aspects comes down to an interpretation of the EULA.

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    • 70.127.23.85 wrote:
      I've actually done some research in this, and there actually wasn't a legal contact signed at all. The best that founders could do, is take DE to court for false advertising. Fortunately, this most likely wouldn't hurt DE financially, but it'd tarnish their reputation. So Excalibur Prime can't be rereleased, because not only would DE be going back on their word, but their word from that point on would mean nothing to their consumers.

      Another point, the people who get mad and say that they can take legal action, they wouldn't be able to do much at all if anything. All they'd get in the end is a refund.


      Actually, there was, and I have 2 founders on the discord I use daily that back that claim up when I researched it myself. They admitted that they had to sign an agreement when making the purchase.

      And yes, they would get a refund, based on the inflated price the item is now worth. DE would also be out a significant amount of money and have to pay an exorbant amount of court fees since, by the contract, this would be a class action lawsuit filed regarding the Intellectual Property that is the founders items, and thus not under the jurisdiction of the mitigation courts. Legal costs are the number one problem for game companies within the first year, most seeing upwards of 3 lawsuits that they have to deal with. This one would be particularly costly.

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    • I fthey do release it IMO it would be the end of warframe for me. So many players are crying that they cant get it etc etc but for the founders the ones who have been there since the begnning it is nice to have something special which keeps it interesting. Also it ws said that this item was specifically for the founders and it should stay for founders. If anything make a new version of excal V2 you might say.

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    • NeithanDiniem wrote:

      70.127.23.85 wrote:
      I've actually done some research in this, and there actually wasn't a legal contact signed at all. The best that founders could do, is take DE to court for false advertising. Fortunately, this most likely wouldn't hurt DE financially, but it'd tarnish their reputation. So Excalibur Prime can't be rereleased, because not only would DE be going back on their word, but their word from that point on would mean nothing to their consumers.

      Another point, the people who get mad and say that they can take legal action, they wouldn't be able to do much at all if anything. All they'd get in the end is a refund.


      Actually, there was, and I have 2 founders on the discord I use daily that back that claim up when I researched it myself. They admitted that they had to sign an agreement when making the purchase.

      And yes, they would get a refund, based on the inflated price the item is now worth. DE would also be out a significant amount of money and have to pay an exorbant amount of court fees since, by the contract, this would be a class action lawsuit filed regarding the Intellectual Property that is the founders items, and thus not under the jurisdiction of the mitigation courts. Legal costs are the number one problem for game companies within the first year, most seeing upwards of 3 lawsuits that they have to deal with. This one would be particularly costly.

      I'm a founder and I don't remember this lol, my memory prob just saw it as another terms of service or whatever.

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    • Kalalokki wrote:
      I'm a founder and I don't remember this lol, my memory prob just saw it as another terms of service or whatever.

      That is essentially exactly what it was. By accepting the contract agreement you were digitially signing it. Contract guaranteed exclusivity, which is effectively DE signing over rights of redistribution of the IP to be dependant on termination of the contract. Since the contract was made with every founder, every founder would need to terminate the contract for DE to be allowed to redistribute.

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    • Another founder here. There was actually a thing in the T&C's for the purchase of a Founder Pack that stated the item would never be released again after the closing of the Founders Program. Because it's in that "contract" which was digitally agreed to by both parties, DE can never release any of the Founder exlusives again. Not even the profile icons. But I will give you this good news: the Umbra series is coming soon (later this year maybe) and it will feature a "prime-like" dark look. As well as altered abilities and such.

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    • well except they did change the items given within the founders pack after finishing it iirc. when it was buyable excal prime was the same frame statwise with only changes in looks. then they changed it. why cant they change it again?

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    • 83.66.145.6 wrote:
      well except they did change the items given within the founders pack after finishing it iirc. when it was buyable excal prime was the same frame statwise with only changes in looks. then they changed it. why cant they change it again?


      An item can be improved without altering the original function. The alterations made were all cosmetic changes done to Excal Prime (PBR) or additions to the founders packages (primed extractors, additional extractor slots, "prime" buff), never anything to remove a feature or function of the package. Part of the Founder's original function is that exclusivity, meaning it cannot be altered.

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    • Can us console players at least have one chance of getting Excal Prime considering it doesn't exist on console ?

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    • 78.15.197.195 wrote:
      Can us console players at least have one chance of getting Excal Prime considering it doesn't exist on console ?


      Nope, because that would be DE redistributing the frame, which breeches contract. Founders that copied their accounts to console couldn't even have the frame, it is exclusive to the PC build founder's accounts only.

      This is partially why the consoles have exclusive skin packs that are not available on PC or the other console.

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    • Excaliber prime is sort of in ps4/Xbox1 has anyone ever done vault runs before because thats the closest that us console players are gonna get so deal with it.

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    • I'm a Grand Master, I don't think it should be "unvaulted" so to speak, but I do think founder status should periodically be re-opened. I can speak with some authority that a contingent of founders will throw a fit, but mostly the ones who do so all the time anyways.

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    • Jeffman12 wrote:
      I'm a Grand Master, I don't think it should be "unvaulted" so to speak, but I do think founder status should periodically be re-opened. I can speak with some authority that a contingent of founders will throw a fit, but mostly the ones who do so all the time anyways.


      Im not even a founder and Id throw a fit. Id throw a fit because I'd know theyd be opening themselves up for a lawsuit for contract breach and altering a sold digital product in a way that removes a key aspect of the sold product; its exclusivity. Id rather not have Digital Extremes be sued by the British court due to digital product laws there which DE is legally obligated to abide by in order to release their game in Britan.

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    • Simply put, founders for console is possible, but it would be entirely different from pc without a chance of overlap.

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    • 96.19.1.238 wrote:
      Simply put, founders for console is possible, but it would be entirely different from pc without a chance of overlap.


      They already have far more exclusive skins and appearances than PC has, what would a fake founders thing do for them other than make another item exclusive and piss everyone off on the other platforms? There is absolutely no way to make anything at all exclusive in the game without it pissing off more people than it ever possibly could make happy. That is one of the dumbest thing a company could do.

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    • mhyeaah

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    • And yet they made a founders program to begin with.


      Plenty of games have no such founders program, and people don't go around complaining about how they wished someone who discovered the game long before they did got access to exclusive items that are never to be available again.

      I'm also searching for the legal document of which you speak and can't, for the life of me.

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    • Jeffman12 wrote:
      And yet they made a founders program to begin with.


      Plenty of games have no such founders program, and people don't go around complaining about how they wished someone who discovered the game long before they did got access to exclusive items that are never to be available again.

      I'm also searching for the legal document of which you speak and can't, for the life of me.


      A bill of sale is legally binding. Signatures were needed to finish the transaction of the founders packages. All specifics of the features of the item sold were displayed for the buyer to read prior to purchase. Features of the sale of digital products cannot be altered to a point that the fundamental aspects of one of those features is removed. The key important feature of founders items was their exclusivity. That is the document that is being spoken of.

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    • Poetic, but you have such a bill of sale on hand, ready for review?

      I do, and it has the word "exclusive" nowhere in it.

      What's more, the term exclusive does not apply to other founders. I see no reason why this limits them from re-opening the program periodically, perhaps based on certain milestones, like active userbase. Whether they do is certainly up to them, if you feel like leveling a lawsuit that is your right in most cases I am aware of, for whatever reason imaginable, but I can't say one wouldn't be found liable for damages resulting from filing frivolous charges or not.

      Your opinion is valid, but as far as I can tell, the evidence is not.

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    • Jeffman12 wrote:
      Poetic, but you have such a bill of sale on hand, ready for review?

      I do, and it has the word "exclusive" nowhere in it.

      What's more, the term exclusive does not apply to other founders. I see no reason why this limits them from re-opening the program periodically, perhaps based on certain milestones, like active userbase. Whether they do is certainly up to them, if you feel like leveling a lawsuit that is your right in most cases I am aware of, for whatever reason imaginable, but I can't say one wouldn't be found liable for damages resulting from filing frivolous charges or not.

      Your opinion is valid, but as far as I can tell, the evidence is not.


      Then you have failed even the most basic attepts at research. Every promotional offer for the founders items indicated or linked to the page indicating the exclusivity of the item. It was clearly visible on the page you had to go to in order to make the purchase. Likewise, the developers publicly stated multiple times its exclusivity and have only reinforced that statement since the program ended. These statements are avaiable to view online at your lesiure. The promotial pages used during the program's active time are also available to view, one of which is still hosted on the Warframe website itself, which states the exclusivity. The sale page is no longer active, but images are. So if you are not finding any evidence of the case, then you are likely failing to actually look for any.

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    • But it's apparently impossible to provide a link to any such legally binding documentation by yourself or google, as it lacks relevant results for "warframe founders contract", "warframe founder legal", "digital extremes founder", "warframe founder" . Simply having the word "exclusive" on a web page does not a legal case make.

      http://www.warframe.com/en/founders This is a 404. No information available.

      https://www.warframe.com/news/join-warframe-founders-program "For a limited time only" Does not state which time, this is not legally binding. Furthermore, "exclusive" is strictly defined as "only available to Founders." This does not reference a timeframe in which it is applicable, only that "Founders" get it, not Founders from between December 2012 and March/November 2013.

      The word must bear with it stipulations that describe exactly what "exclusive" means. For instance, is it exclusive in relation to to a period in time? This is what you state to be the case, so let's review what it would need:

      A. Firmly stated begin and end date, preferably from before the end date.

      B. A legally admissible and binding declaration of intent complete with any possible stipulations or modifications, or statement acknowledging a lackthereof.


      Courts don't operate on feelings alone. There needs to be something tangible, and the burden of proof lies with YOU. I will no longer be doing your homework for you on this one.

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    • And that refusal of providing evidence is your downfall as disproving evidence is not the equal of providing evidence. Where is the bill of sale? Don't have it posted? You aren't providing evidence. Non-founder here. Whether or not there is a legally binding contract if DE re-opens Founders or hands out ONE more Excalibur/Skana/Lato Prime I am done with Warframe because their reliability is what I enjoy about this particular company.

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    • You don't really get how this works, do you? The person who makes a claim is responsible for furnishing all evidence supporting the claim that is available to them.

      I am not making a claim, I am expressing my doubt in that claim as I have found no evidence to support it, when someone apparently has evidence for something they say is true it is their responsibility to share it, especially on a wiki where this information is VITAL to its function. Whether you feel it is right or not does not establish legal precedent, and the fact that you're one of those people willing to cut off your nose to spite your face is wholly irrelevant on that front.

      "Maybe you're too dumb to find it" while entirely possible, is the refrain of those who lack all evidence, and serves no purpose other than to look like a real tough guy to other novices at this whole "evidence" thing. Maybe I am! So put up or shut up.

      It is not my role to provide "evidence" that holds no merit to the claim as it neither proves nor disproves the claim.

      Did you know founders was extended an extra half of a year over the alleged cutoff date? So why don't you quit Warframe now, they already broke their word once, so clearly DE is unreliable by your entirely arbitrarily black and white moral standard. Heck even, before Warframe, they were caving to external pressure when they made Dark Sector take place in Cold War era Not-Ukrainistan instead of the current setting. I also highly doubt you'd cease playing if you were the recipient of said items, but your claim won't have evidence for it unless this unlikely event happens, so you're free to say you'd grow an archwing and fly to Mars if that happened, and guess what, nobody could disprove it.

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    • I doubt, that any company would risk a legally binding agreement regarding digital content beeing eternally exclusive and (like i read above) preserve it in a way it was handed out, only beeing able to change it possitively not negatively.

      Because nobody in this thread could find any real prove or disprove regarding the existence of such contracts, we all can only assume. As said before promotional material promising exclusivity are at best an false advertisement suit.

      IMO If they really included a clause that guarantees this exclusivity in a way that is legally enforcable in the contract of sale of the founder packs, they either had a really bad lawyer at the time or no lawyer at all (which i highly doubt).

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    • Things just got real...

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    • So pretty much Jeffman lost all the credibility he has, reduced to the ole "But you can't prove it doesn't exist" arguement.

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    • Extra points for attacking someone personally as a last result lul.

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    • "Resort"

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    • Please highlight the personal attacks I made, and if you only now realize I made no such comments but you had no other way to articulate your disagreement with them, illustrate for us in what ways I was wrong. Else, you have committed a logical fallacy predicated on a blatant lie, but being wrong about any single subject is a bool value, so you can only get "more correct".

      Do you intend to say that because I was "mean" to someone on the internet DE is therefore definitely in a legally binding agreement that prevents them from re-releasing the content of their game that they hold sole ownership over the assets therein?

      Once again, reread the segments about evidence, burden of proof, and how information is gathered. I never said anything "can't be proven to not exist" I'm the one asking for proof of the alleged contract.

      My interest in this is an educational one as I intend to either finally quash the rumor as to DE's motivations to avoid a breach of some hitherto unproven contract or confirm them once and for all. Should this contract fail to be made tangible, or should it be brought to the light of day, I will personally document its presence and ensure that nobody that seeks it out will ever go on believing that which is contrary to fact on this subject, myself.

      120.137.192.186 wrote:
      Extra points for attacking someone personally as a last resort lul.

      Also you do realize that if your apparent definition of "personal attack" is as broad as you seem to imply, you have just done much the same.

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    • Very nice rebuttal.

      On another note, there are a lot who respect founders as players for what they did for Warframe. The game was in a pretty bad place then and without the help of the Founders we might not have it. If Excalibur Prime ever did come back I feel he would have to be earned. Not through farming or anything gameplay related but instead doing something similar to what the founders did. The Founders had put in their, at the time had been very meaningful to the game and it's health, money and faith into. The latter being ever more important than the first because they were not even guaranteed a game after. Therefore, now of days to earn something like Founders you have to do something for an already successful game, something meaningful to the table and well, they have game developing team for a reason. Do something good for the game weather it gets you it or not, thats what being a Founder was back then. Plus, EXCLUSIVES AWH YEAH. #notafounderbuticanseewhyicanthaveit

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    • 47.208.25.239 wrote:
      Very nice rebuttal.

      On another note, there are a lot who respect founders as players for what they did for Warframe. The game was in a pretty bad place then and without the help of the Founders we might not have it. If Excalibur Prime ever did come back I feel he would have to be earned. Not through farming or anything gameplay related but instead doing something similar to what the founders did. The Founders had put in their, at the time had been very meaningful to the game and it's health, money and faith into. The latter being ever more important than the first because they were not even guaranteed a game after. Therefore, now of days to earn something like Founders you have to do something for an already successful game, something meaningful to the table and well, they have game developing team for a reason. Do something good for the game weather it gets you it or not, thats what being a Founder was back then. Plus, EXCLUSIVES AWH YEAH. #notafounderbuticanseewhyicanthaveit

      Couldn't agree more. While I think it unlikely at this point (If they weren't going to do this for something as ambitious as PoE, I can't imagine the stakes they'd need to see fit to do as much) I'd love to see a time when founders was reopened, and most founders still active seem to agree when it's brought up in Design Council or "Region Prime", but I feel like it'd need to be done in preparation for an ambitious update, or, and I'm guessing, what would ostensibly amount to the launch of a sequel at this point.

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    • If no one has the proof for a document then you must assume it doesn't exist until it is brought up.

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    • Not necessarily true, it's in the category of a "safe guess" to presume no such document exists, but is still a possibility as we know it is something that "could" reasonably exist to any provable degree. Though it often be used as a refrain to justify one's subjective religious beliefs, the statement "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence." actually holds true when no special or supernatural assumptions needs to be made to assert a fact. However, it makes no sense for someone who apparently "knows for certain" that it exists to withhold relevant information, and rightly raises suspicion as to the claim's validity, and allowing one to dismiss it via Hitchens' Razor, but since it's not a supernatural claim it could still reasonably exist. Until, that is...

      I've recently been informed that Section 8 of the EULA for Warframe preclude's such a document's enforcability by stating that no other document holds authority over things internal to Warframe. As has been pointed out here already, this means DE holds sole ownership of Founder content and solely determine its use/accessibility in future.

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    • These are indeed exciting times for Warframe.

      I think what is going to be the most exciting part in the future is the possibility of how Excalibur Umbras and Primes will see eachother, weather or not they will play nice is up to them but looks to be grounds for competition for something that has been exclusive for as long as this game has been around and something completely new similar to that of its Prime brother.

      Who knows what DE is going to do with all of it. It might end up like that one event,

      The Gradivus Dilemma

      all over again.

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    • If things end up like the Gradivus Dilemma again, I'm probably going to leave for a long time. Personal choice for a game event was a bad idea from the moment that it merely relied on mob mentality. Making it a cinematic campaign unlock is much better IMO. 

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    • just want to point out. there people who do sell them founder pro for money

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    • User agreements can be written to say anything. Doesn’t make that above the law of the land. They can still get sued and are held to a standard by law. User agreements never protect companies 100%. They just want you to think the consumer is powerless but we are not.

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    • You can file suit for any reason at all whenever you wish, it's not a guaranteed win. You could file a case against Coca Cola for causing your hot sandwich to cool off too quickly, but it will most likely be thrown out. The phrasing in anything that can even nearly be construed as advertisement simply says that the "Items" are "Exclusive to Founders" not for how long or if it can or cannot ever come back. They have stated separately they won't bring it back, but that's not advertisement as it's ex post facto. They retain ownership of everything within warframe, and have at least demonstrated some degree of trustworthyness. Companies retaining ownership of their IP over the userbase is well established in literature, games, film, and any other non-public domain media. Unless you can point to a concrete example of an advertisement, your 'law of the land' claim is entirely immaterial.

      If you wish to verify, you could ask a lawyer. The internet is lousy with places to facilitate such a thing, and I'm sure you might even find one that, circumstances permitting, might take the case, but software licensing is usually standard by this point. An EULA cannot be used to waive a user's rights, but no right is potentially infringed by access or inaccess to proprietary software.

      In the incredibly unlikely event that founder is ever opened up again, you are free to sue whomever you like, but victory is far from assured, and you'll probably be on the hook for all partys' legal fees if your case isn't strong enough. Considering that "the founders contract" doesn't exist and would not supersede the EULA as it isn't based in the law of any land (No corporation would be stupid enough to invite lawsuit intentionally) the argument is moot. 

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    • 166.137.102.86 wrote:
      just want to point out. there people who do sell them founder pro for money

      and who ever buy it.got perma ban,i saw it

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    • People are still on about this? whew this really is never going to end, is there any other game that has its players complaining over the founders packs as much as warframe players?

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    • Cebian i wrote:
      People are still on about this? whew this really is never going to end, is there any other game that has its players complaining over the founders packs as much as warframe players?

      Not that I'm aware of, the only one I still play is WF. Maybe MWO? I have family that plays that about as much as I do warframe, so I'll let you know when he gets back to me.

      I think the root of the issue is that the items granted a higher affinity cap. While the total amount granted is negligible, and DE tends to allow everyone into the next ranking bracket whenever the soft cap goes up, there seem to be a lot of people invested in 100%ing the game, or depriving others of that capacity for the sake of elitism. IMO, it's petty either way, but I guess empty threats of legal action is just what makes some people feel good.

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    • Indeed, but lets be real, After MR 16 you,ve pretty much bypassed ever MR lock in the game{since rivens have the highest MR lock at 16}, and the players with a grain of common sense knows that MR means nothing in this game, it just shows how much time you've invested in using weapons you'll never touch again after ranking them up to lv 30, lacking a few thousand xp isn't going to ruin your gaming experience and argueing and starting threads over founder items is just going to spew vemon and salt from boths ends.

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    • Jeffman12 wrote:
       
      Not that I'm aware of, the only one I still play is WF. Maybe MWO? I have family that plays that about as much as I do warframe, so I'll let you know when he gets back to me.

      I think the root of the issue is that the items granted a higher affinity cap. While the total amount granted is negligible, and DE tends to allow everyone into the next ranking bracket whenever the soft cap goes up, there seem to be a lot of people invested in 100%ing the game, or depriving others of that capacity for the sake of elitism. IMO, it's petty either way, but I guess empty threats of legal action is just what makes some people feel good.

      You should've seen players get up in arms in the World of Tanks playerbase when they brought back premium tanks they're supposedly not going to sell again. One of which was much like Excalibur Prime, a founders pre-order pack exclusive that Wargaming said would never be sold outside of those packages.

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    • Breuger wrote:

      You should've seen players get up in arms in the World of Tanks playerbase when they brought back premium tanks they're supposedly not going to sell again. One of which was much like Excalibur Prime, a founders pre-order pack exclusive that Wargaming said would never be sold outside of those packages.

      Did a lawsuit materialize out of all of that, and if so who won?

      I have no reason to believe the resulting shitstorm wouldn't be as bad had Wargaming kept the original contents of the founders pack bundled while re-releasing, but I still think it's impossible to tell with another game unless the whole thing has run its course. I'd imagine if there is a court case, it's still pending?

      I don't know where to start looking for information on that, as it's my understanding WoT has had quite a few massive controversies over the years, so much so that they've made their way into general gaming news on several occasions, and this one is completely new to me.

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    • Jeffman12 wrote:

      Did a lawsuit materialize out of all of that, and if so who won?

      I have no reason to believe the resulting shitstorm wouldn't be as bad had Wargaming kept the original contents of the founders pack bundled while re-releasing, but I still think it's impossible to tell with another game unless the whole thing has run its course. I'd imagine if there is a court case, it's still pending?

      I don't know where to start looking for information on that, as it's my understanding WoT has had quite a few massive controversies over the years, so much so that they've made their way into general gaming news on several occasions, and this one is completely new to me.

      I wouldn't know where to look to see if a suit had been filed, but I've yet to see any mention of anyone actually filing anything out of forums posts, and the various World of Tanks youtubers/streamers/news blogs.

      The re-release was in April this year, I don't know if it'd be too soon to tell, but there's definitely been time for people to discuss it.

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    • This shouldn't even be discussed.

      Back then, the game was more or less a tech demo.

      All the mission were more or less the same and the enemies were just clone copies.

      Founders took a gamble to buy those packs for a game that could have failed big time, especially when F2P model was still a really new model back then.

      Did anyone know Digital Extremes will keep improving the game so much that it is barely even recognisable?

      Did anyone know this game will even last so long?

      Where were the non-Founders back then?

      Why didn't they support and buy the pack back then?

      It's always "I didn't have money back then", "I didn't know Warframe existed back then", "I didn't wanna buy it back then because I don't know if the game will fail", "I missed the sale back then because I was doing something else".

      Come on.

      Opportunity only comes once and it was clear the pack was marketed as exclusive and big thumbs up to Digital Extreme for honouring their word.

      Just because the apple stock is 171 bucks per share now doesn't mean you can buy it today at the price when it first launch just because you missed the sale or didn't have money to buy it or didn't believe in it or didn't commit.

      Same thing for the Founder pack items. Just because the game is successful now and Excalibur has become a good frame after Exalted Blade rework doesn't mean non-Founders can just buy the pack again as though the Founders' gamble and faith in a "tech demo" back then didn't mean shit.

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    • Sterma albatros wrote: It will be bad for DE. Excalibur Prime will NEVER be released again. Please refer to one of the 60,000 other threads on this topic for more details of why.

      That's what they said about priming side quest frames like Limbo but look where we are now.

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    • Jesus your all dumb, Excalibur p will never be release fook u all

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    • No u

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    • wait

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    • FaithFai wrote:
      Just For Fun Please Reply.

      it would definitely piss off the founders soo badly they'd just leave and often the founders are the most intensive players of the game spending the most money and so it would be a deathnail to the company besides Excalibur Umbra exists so who really cares about getting yet another excalibur 

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    • Please stop worshipping us.

      There are people playing warframe that are not, nor ever have been founders, who have well outspent the vast majority of founders. The key difference is time. The people I speak of didn't contribute at the time that DE was struggling to stay afloat and Warframe was still a last ditch effort to keep from going under. I can say that, for me, I happened to have disposable income at the time, I took a gamble and won, but many founders took the gamble and feel they lost, and no longer play Warframe at all.

      You've got basically two kinds of founders left these days, the ones that constantly whinge and complain about the direction the game went in, and those who, like myself revel in the discovery of each new update and stay up at odd hours talking with like-minded founders in Design Council about what each lore implication could mean about the universe.

      Also, Umbra's sooooo freak'n good, better than Excal P, but this thread was started well before it was released.

      Also, @199.200.31.94: The argument wasn't about whether it'd be released or not, it was if DE had legal right to do what they want with the game they own, and whether it'd be wise for them to capitalize on it.

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    • you will never have excal prime, strike the thought from your mind, get over it what is done is done

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    • what about excal umbra or somthing

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    • you can get excal umbra from a quest i think

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    • what if ANOTHER version of another warframe comes in and it's gonna be limited edition and will never be again will this startback up?

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    • but it's not a prime

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    • They promised not to release it and the keep the promise.

      that is why DE is awesome.

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    • Honestly, DE made the massive mistake of making Excalibur Prime, and his weapons, exclusive to begin with. It would have been better to just make a monument to Founders in the game somewhere with their names on it to commemorate their help.

      Making game items a one time, exclusive deal is always a terrible idea. That's one of the reasons why I stopped playing WoW. You can only get certain stuff if you played during that time. It hurts a lot of people who come in after the fact. What's more, it makes the community pretty toxic, as I'm sure many people have found out. And the fact that people are desperate to try and get the goods is also a clue as to how it should never have been exclusive to begin with. Hence why so many Founders have sold their accounts for hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars. Many of which are banned now, by the way.

      I personally lost respect for DE after I found out I couldn't get Excalibur Prime because of their stupidity of promising people that, when I would have gladly helped them out back at the start if I had known they existed. 

      The only fix I can see to this is if DE sold the game to another company or sold their company to a larger company so the new company can release Excalibur Prime and his weapons to the general public, as it should be, to get around that non-binding "promise" that DE made.

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    • Also, Umbra's free for everyone and just so much better.

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    • Jeffman12 wrote:
      Also, Umbra's free for everyone and just so much better.

      Are you dumb? You're missing the point. Excalibur Prime never should have been exclusive to begin with. Also, for some people, they feel a closer connection to the Prime version than they do the Umbra version, but they won't get to play the Prime version.

      And another thing to point out is that people will be able to play any warframe like Umbra with that "Echoes of Umbra" thing or whatever, where they can use operator form and their warframe will attack just like Excalibur Umbra.

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    • <Founder here. I have Excal Prime, read the f'n thread and a bunch of other Excal Prime threads and you'll see I've been a major proponent for removing it from exclusivity, and failing that, mitigating the negative aspects of it remaining so in any way possible, you aren't doing the sentiment any favors by acting like a reactionary troll. I've rescinded the kudos I've issued as you're clearly not going about this with the right mindset. Every opportunity I've gotten, I've voted to unrestrict founder privs, I advocate inclusivity in every aspect of this f'n game whenever I get a chance.

      Nice anecdote "People feel more connection with excalibur prime" and I prefer the varietals of apples that are no longer sold by grocery stores, the difference is I've actually tasted those apples. DE isn't doing themselves any favors, and I've said as much, but there's no way for us to force the issue, so we might as well make do for now.

      If you decide to actually do something about it aside from slagging off people who agree with you, if you can divine a _productive_ plan of action, let me know.

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    •  

      Jeffman12 wrote:
      <Founder here. I have Excal Prime, read the f'n thread and a bunch of other Excal Prime threads and you'll see I've been a major proponent for removing it from exclusivity, and failing that, mitigating the negative aspects of it remaining so in any way possible, you aren't doing the sentiment any favors by acting like a reactionary troll. I've rescinded the kudos I've issued as you're clearly not going about this with the right mindset.

      Every opportunity I've gotten, I've voted to unrestrict founder privs, I advocate inclusivity in every aspect of this f'n game whenever I get a chance.

      Nice anecdote "People feel more connection with excalibur prime" and I prefer the varietals of apples that are no longer sold by grocery stores, the difference is I've actually tasted those apples. DE isn't doing themselves any favors, and I've said as much, but there's no way for us to force the issue, so we might as well make do for now.

      If you decide to actually do something about it aside from slagging off people who agree with you, if you can divine a _productive_ plan of action, let me know.

      Lol well aren't you a hypocrite. You're calling me a "reactionary troll" and yet look at what you're doing. Your previous statement also screws you over. You say you're about inclusivity, and yet you make a statement that supports the crowd that wants to keep Excalibur Prime for Founders. And you critizing my statement and comparing it with apples also shows your arrogance. You did what? Just do a vote when it comes up and pat yourself on the back? How about you "divine a _productive_plan of action" since DE won't listen to the rest of us.


       

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    • I don't see what the big deal is; now that Excalibur has Umbra, Lato and Skana got their vandal/prisma versions (to say nothing of being underwhelming weapons to begin with), and Braton Prime is available to everyone now, the Founder Primes are pretty much just exclusive novelty cosmetic bragging rights rewards. And that's all they need to be.

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    • "Hypocrite" implies I actually have any agency over the results and have chosen the opposite of what I'm telling other people to do for my own self interest. What benefit does exclusivity confer in this case exactly? As I see it, my options beyond advocacy have been exhausted, and the odds that you have a plan other than to lash out at randos on a fan-wiki appear vanishingly slim. Make no mistake, this is no debate as there can be no good-faith attempt on your part to prove that what I am telling you is not what I believe.

      I also happened to pick up this game at the right time and wanted it to succeed so that more may play and enjoy it as I had, it has since blossomed into something far more than I could ever hope for it to have become. I understood then, as I understand now that had this game been unsuccessful, I'd have gotten no refund, that I wasn't owed the things DE would assign to my account, and should I break their rules, they'll take them away, more easily than it was for me to obtain access. I gain nothing and lose nothing by whom DE decides to grant that access or not in future. The game, however may gain or lose by such, so if I am to wish the game continue to succeed, I can offer support for decisions that I think will assist those ends. Further, I am aware that my contribution, although financially costly to myself, was individually insignificant to the overall push, so I am not even owed distinction by other players of this game for such as I was just in the right place at the right time, though I told everyone I could about this game and a few of my friends did end up enjoying it enough to make the same decision I did.

      I fail to see how I am "screwed" by stating that I am pro-inclusivity but since the decision is out of our hands, we can at least enjoy a more-than-viable alternative that is free to all. Umbra is literally better in every possible way, if anything it just makes excal prime seem more petty now. If anything, the main reason I'd like excal prime available to anyone else at this point is to demistify it.

      Do you think I have any executive control over this game, or are you just so mad-online, you need to try to whip up a flame war with everyone you see? If you're under the illusion that Design Council has much sway with DE, beyond ticking the boxes in the polls they occasionally post, I have good news, through community interaction and/or tennogen participation, you too can gain access to region prime and have all the sway and clout (or lackthereof) that entails.

      I think the only reason anyone would be mad about this is because it's believed to be a status symbol, that it confers some entitlement to respect and deference, when it doesn't and I think that's a good thing. It just means you had too much disposable income at just the right time in this game's life, got lucky and I think that's a bad thing.


      170.249.153.179 wrote:
      I don't see what the big deal is; now that Excalibur has Umbra, Lato and Skana got their vandal/prisma versions (to say nothing of being underwhelming weapons to begin with), and Braton Prime is available to everyone now, the Founder Primes are pretty much just exclusive novelty cosmetic bragging rights rewards. And that's all they need to be.

      I don't think they "need" to be, but that's ultimately the point, nothing of value would be lost if they were removed from the game, conceptually. Also, the braton prime was never exclusive, it just took them a long time to actually make one for some reason.The braton vandal was given to all alpha players, originally for 1 credit, so you had to log in and buy it to get one.

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    •  First off, you don't know what hypocrisy means. Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations. You were saying that you support E. Prime being released to the general public, but then turn around and say that E. Umbra is better so there's no point. That's hypocrisy. I'm not mad, but I don't let idiots get away lying.

      I also found it odd your post was unnecessarily long and had been edited. I looked at your contribution history and O M G lol! Not only did your original post show the real you: arrogant, pathetic, entitled, hypocritc, etc., but it looked like you had a bunch of people come in and try make you look less pathetic. Did you have a team try and do damage control of your image or something? That is hilarious :D. Honestly, you should have simply rewritten what you originally wrote instead of going futher into the toilet. 

      Since you're so pathetic (and clearly without a job judging from the various times that you edited your responses to try and make you look less pathetic), let me clarify things: You're a hypocrite, and you only dumped money into the game so you could get exclusives no one else could (your history and the fact that you try so hard to justify dumping money into the game say otherwise). When DE made the offer, did any of the founders step up and say "Hey! Don't do that! Everyone should be able to play him!"? The answer is no, they wanted exclusives to feel entitled.

      It's because of trash like you that people hate founders. Lying hypocrites that want to feel entitled. And don't try and say otherwise, your history and hypocrisy says it all.  

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    • Dragondefender1 wrote:
       First off, you don't know what hypocrisy means. Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations. You were saying that you support E. Prime being released to the general public, but then turn around and say that E. Umbra is better so there's no point. That's hypocrisy. I'm not mad, but I don't let idiots get away lying.

      I also found it odd your post was unnecessarily long and had been edited. I looked at your contribution history and O M G lol! Not only did your original post show the real you: arrogant, pathetic, entitled, hypocritc, etc., but it looked like you had a bunch of people come in and try make you look less pathetic. Did you have a team try and do damage control of your image or something? That is hilarious :D. Honestly, you should have simply rewritten what you originally wrote instead of going futher into the toilet. 

      Since you're so pathetic (and clearly without a job judging from the various times that you edited your responses to try and make you look less pathetic), let me clarify things: You're a hypocrite, and you only dumped money into the game so you could get exclusives no one else could (your history and the fact that you try so hard to justify dumping money into the game say otherwise). When DE made the offer, did any of the founders step up and say "Hey! Don't do that! Everyone should be able to play him!"? The answer is no, they wanted exclusives to feel entitled.

      It's because of trash like you that people hate founders. Lying hypocrites that want to feel entitled. And don't try and say otherwise, your history and hypocrisy says it all.  

      Nobody hates founders though.

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    • goodness, folks still get riled up over this thing?

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    • My point still stands: 

      Jeffman12 wrote:
      Make no mistake, this is no debate as there can be no good-faith attempt on your part to prove that what I am telling you is not what I believe.

      I never said "There's no point" I just said Umbra's better and free. You added "there's no point" in your own head, I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that you aren't valid, but you're kind of demonstrating exactly why you aren't right now. You just want to harass someone because you feel left out, this is one of the reasons I think excal prime should be available to others, but the main reason I wish it was available is so people would stop building it up as some mystical trophy.

      Hark! My shadow army has been exposed! I jest. No, I re-edit my post until it sits right with me, besides you're acting like a jerk, and I owe you nothing. Don't throw stones, Mr. Longpost.

      It's actually none of your business what I do for a living, but I assure you I wouldn't be doing it for much longer if I were to act like you have been. (EDIT Fun fact, different jobs have different hours, and many have different days off. EDIT 2: I decided to start marking my edits for you for two reasons; 1. Now you don't need to view the history to pretend you're better and 2. to show you just how little I care what you think of me Edit 3: Show me someone who gets it right the first time, every time, and I'll give you a deal on some swampland )

      I reiterate:

      Jeffman12 wrote:
      Make no mistake, this is no debate as there can be no good-faith attempt on your part to prove that what I am telling you is not what I believe.

      But seriously, you need help, dude, members of my family suffer from paranoia and entertaining those 'perceptions' makes it worse. Again, you aren't "fighting the system" you're lashing out at a stranger on the internet. There is nothing to gain by tilting at this windmill. Edit 5 (Edit 6 forgot to mark Edit 5) Again, if you've got some constructive ideas on what I should do to affect some change, I'm open to suggestions, but there's only so much one can do. Edit 8: And this one's important, you understand that Warframe was a moonshot for DE, right? They were on the brink of shutting down for good. At the time, nobody knew if the game was going to be there a year later.

      Edit 4: 

      170.249.153.179 wrote:
       Nobody hates founders though.

      If I told this in region prime, it'd get a laugh. Edit 7: The joke being, nobody hates founders more than some of the other founders, and this is literally the reason for some of that animosity. I've been called evil for suggesting excal prime go public again, not 5 minutes before the same person calling me evil started saying torture is the only way to get reliable information out of prisoners of war, irl.

      Edit 10: Woops, I forgot where I put Edit 9 before marking it...

      Edit 11: The sense of moral superiority I have over founders that didn't support re-release is a far more powerful joy than the one said anti-release founders get from excal prime remaining exclusive.

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    •  Your hypocrisy is showing again. I don’t have to prove that you’re a hypocrite for what you believe in. You already show it. You basically did say there was no point since you say you want E. Prime to be free to the public then turn around and say that E. Umbra is better and free. I don’t know if you’re just not smart enough to realize what you just said or what, but hey, you can try and twist it around, but know that people will call you out on it.

      And you typing in your edits to try and make yourself look like less of an idiot is hilarious. You say one dumb thing, and then you try and justify your stupidity. No, you don’t owe us anything, but we will call you out on your bs. The fact that you’re trying to defend it shows that you actually do care. Honestly, I’m enjoying watching you try and deflect your obvious faults and lack of intellect. So, I don’t need help :P I’m not fighting the system, I’m just having fun calling out an idiot on a forum. Keep going. You’re entertaining.



      Also, to the Lone Tenno, if you think people don't hate Founders, you're clearly either living under a rock or are just that oblivious.   

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    • You can't prove I'm a hypocrite because you're just wrong, and seemingly incapable of discerning tone, which goes a long way towards processing veracity. Your "evidence" is projecting things you think, that I never said, and your previous posts show just how mad-online you are.

      I hope you actually are having fun, I find bonkers conspiracy theorists quite entertaining, myself. How many people do  I have staffed on my writing team? How much plat do I pay them per month? How do I afford said plat given that I am oh-so-obviously unemployed?

      Edit 12: Just thought I'd remind you I was already making fun of you using your own silly accusations before your bad faith attempt at a tone shift.

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    •  “You can’t prove I’m a hypocrite because you’re just wrong” lol wow xD Now you’ve lost it. As I’ve said before, you’re showing all the evidence. We can all see your lies and hypocrisy. And the fact that you’re using petty mockery now shows you’ve not only lost the argument, but you can no longer defend yourself. You are done. And there never was much of a tone shift. I called you out on your hypocrisy and you’re paying the price for it. Instead of going further into the toilet, you could try and see the error of your ways. I doubt you will, so you may continue to try and soothe your ego.  

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    • Saying "You're showing all the evidence" doesn't change the fact that your "evidence" is the garbage knocking around in your own head and "that there have been edits" all the while not challenging the content or context of what I actually have said. Nothing you have cited as "evidence" is actually contained within my posts at any point. You got irate because I have a thing that you do not, and you didn't like me telling you that it wasn't a big deal anymore, and then you claimed you were just "having fun" despite also vehemently denying being a troll. Get help.

      It's so damn important to you that I see the "error of my ways" when "my ways" are just what you've projected onto me from your own baggage because, and I've said this already, I happened to be here at the right time with the right disposable income. I don't have the ego problem, kiddo, I told you in not so many words that founders are basically has-beens, being angry at any of them for something out of their hands now is just plain stupid. They were important as a whole, once, but no more.

      I'm not "done", because I'm showing that even if you agree with me on a thing that should happen, I need to demonstrate to others that it cannot be because you and your ilk are so incredibly f'ng jealous that you're willing to waste your own time throwing tantrums in places unrelated to the actual goings on. If you're ever upset over the research price of the Hema, it's because of people like you who said it wouldn't be fair to them if it was corrected after they already finished it. If you're upset about Excalibur Prime's exclusivity, it's because people like you got all their buddies to vote for the option that would allow them to say "F you, got mine!" to the rest of the player base when DE polled us on re-opening founders. You keep assuming everyone is just like you and have demonstrated just how petty and entitled you really are, well the sad part is enough of them are that it has an effect on those around them, and one of those people happens to be you specifically, so f'n deal with it, try being a little more charitable with people, and this shit will still happen, but maybe it won't feel like such a betrayal next time you feel like screeching at someone you've never met, whom I need to remind you agrees with your point now, as I did then, 6 years too late.

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    •  LOL wow you are just pathetic! Again and again, you keep showing how much of an insecure, lying hypocrit you are xD You clearly do have an ego problem. What I said still stands and you keep proving me right. Thanks for being a moron and showing everyone how right I am, and how wrong you are xD  

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    • Dragondefender1 wrote:
       LOL wow you are just pathetic! Again and again, you keep showing how much of an insecure, lying hypocrit you are xD You clearly do have an ego problem. What I said still stands and you keep proving me right. Thanks for being a moron and showing everyone how right I am, and how wrong you are xD

      No u.

      I literally have told you in every single post that I'm basically nobody to you, as well as all other founders, and you keep telling me my ego is out of control. I genuinely believe you're having some sort of dissociative episode as it seems more plausible than someone having the exact opposite of anything that can be called reading comprehension.

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    •  Sure Hon, whatever helps you sleep at night.  

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    • I assure you, of the things that affect my sleep, you are not counted among them, and that should really go both ways, but now I just want to see how badly you need the last word.

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    •  lol hypocrite to the end XD Thanks for showing everyone that, kiddo.  

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    • Continue failing to demonstrate that, by all means.

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    •  lol sure hon  

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    • Congratulations. You two have officially earned a *literal prize* for your petulance. Not even being facetious- Key to the Wiki badge; all yours courtesy this asinine feud over a discontinued obsolete in-game cosmetic that cost more real-world currency than the game itself actually cost. I hope this brings you some modicum of satisfaction because by the looks of things you must not have much else in your lives that can.

      Game over. You two both lose. Next person to respond to this comment chain after this post earns the distinction of the bigger loser. Game start.

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    • 170.249.153.179 wrote:
      Congratulations. You two have officially earned a *literal prize* for your petulance. Not even being facetious- Key to the Wiki badge; all yours courtesy this asinine feud over a discontinued obsolete in-game cosmetic that cost more real-world currency than the game itself actually cost. I hope this brings you some modicum of satisfaction because by the looks of things you must not have much else in your lives that can.

      Game over. You two both lose. Next person to respond to this comment chain after this post earns the distinction of the bigger loser. Game start.

      No, you are the biggest loser. Instead of just leaving this alone, you had to put your 2 cents in? really? stfu

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    • 90.192.217.169 wrote:
      ok i'll explain this instead of posting "ur dum lol" or "stop talking about excalbur p!".

      when the founders pack was released, it was advertised as a way to kickstart warframe; to incentivize funding they had to add a few items that would remain exclusive to the pack, these being excalibur prime, lato prime and skana prime. those who paid for the founder pack brought items that were to never be obtainable ingame or ever again.

      at the time, it worked great; those who liked warframe were able to show their support and allow the game to grow with some cool goodies along with it. there's no doubt that it helped warfame become the game it is today.

      now here's the problem; because of DE's promise to make these items "exclusive" and to "never be obtainable ingame", they cannot release the pack again without breaking this promise and upsetting founders. theoretically, if they did rerun the founders pack today, the original founders would be pissed off as their exclusive items are now being given out again; it would however be the best selling prime access for a while as countless people want those founders items, especially excalibur mains/players who want the stat bonus, gold appearance and death orb 250 energy bonus.

      de has repeated hundreds of times that they have no intention of making founders items available again because of what i have talked about above. the only way they might do it is if they absolutely require money or get brought out by a company that forces their hand.

      now lets talk about the console editions, excalibur prime, lato prime and skana prime do not exist in the console versions of warframe, a console founder pack was never run and those who moved their founders accounts over to the console edition of the game did not have those items carried across with them. i could see them running a console founders access so that these items exist in that version of the game, but don't get your hopes up.

      lets not avoid the elephant in the room here; we've all heard about the chinese version of the game that is selling the founders items for the chinese servers (currently lato prime was last on sale); the chinese version is ran by another company and DE has very little control over business decisions over there. anything brought on the chinese version of warframe cannot be transferred over to the main game, so no damage there.

      so for right now, excalibur players are hoping that excalibur umbra will fill that prime gap for their favourite frame. we don't know when excalibur umbra will be released, but it's supposedly sometime during 2017 with a new cinematic quest to be bundled with him

      tl;dr - excalibur prime and the founders items will never return because of a promise DE made back when the founders pack was being run. it's sad for those who didn't know about warframe at the time or couldn't afford the pack, but we have to accept the fact that we won't see him being available again.

      So since yall are quick to boohoo and disagree...No legal action can be taken if DE decides they want to release excalibur prime again it's their choice and stuff happens all the time, to those who say that founders signed a contract no they didn't...it was exclusively in warframes starting days and that was long ago, sorry to tell you the world keeps moving and that same applies in warframe, yes they paid money for it in the beginning but at the end of the day it's DE's choice if they want to re-release...and to be honest with how much they are making now, it's dumb if they really don't because it will bring even more players to warframe across the platforms, so to everyone who is ohh you're dumb or you're being stupid so quickly actually do your research. DE is a company yes they want to keep their players happy but if they do a poll alot of people would be for a re-release, it's 1 prime out of how many currently? and how many more to come? and also the console players can't access it because Warframe started on PC...that's not fair to someone who started playing in 2016-2017 what if they want excalibur prime? yea ik someone is gonna read this and be like life isn't fair, exactly my point life isn't fair and if DE so happens to want to re-release their product for the current player base, it's their decision to do so. No one can sue because DE can be petty and ban your account at any time they see fit, so stop lookin at negative viewpoints and actually think about it before you give your opinion. I personally hate excalibur prime's look but I would like to have it for the MR points. But that's just me...all these internet trolls know deep down they want excalibur prime as well but yet they are too cowardly to admit it. That's sad this is a game that people play...you can't sue a major company because they decided to re-release content that is what 15-17 years old?...like cmon be real and look at the current path warframe is taking...it honesly would do better if all primes were in game but i mean those bragging rights really turn people into trolls I guess.

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