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A Lone Tenno
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  • Hey there, I agree on the format, although I hate that it's the other way round in-game (% for armor and x for damage - they should really change that) <.< ^^

    The previous values on Maximized Power Strength were still the ones without Power Drift until Xyath[1] added them in (with the wrong Maximum Fury since he just used it as a multiplier, so yeah, your format is definitely better :D)

    Two things though: On Maximized Power Range it shows 139% (or 1.39x) in-game rather than 1.4x. And the Maximized Fury value on Maximized Power Strength should be 623.25%. You might want to doublecheck the latter since I don't have all the mods maxed but I get a 5.99 / 598.75% damage multiplier in-game with +185% PS, so it has to be higher than 6 for the maximum.

    Thank you for your time ^^

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    • Sorry I didn't notice your message earlier. I also just noticed there was a discussion on the most recent edits in the comment section.

      While the abilities menu and HUD show "139%" for the minimum value of Scorn, this is a UI error with rounding. This isn't the first and only case either. Overextended would have to have a power strength penalty of roughly -60.3% to produce that displayed minimum value. Normally I would accept UI values if there is a nonlinear relationship between an ability stat and mods or if the stat is capped, but this isn't the case here.

      As for Fury in the maximization tab, we're talking about the damage bonus and not the total combined multiplier. If I'm saying maximum Fury grants an additional 175% total weapon damage, then maximum Fury will grant an additional 523.25% total weapon damage with maximum power strength. I'll reword the article for clarity.

      I'm just trying to maintain consistency throughout all ability articles when differentiating between multipliers and percent bonuses as the UI often mixes these up. Thanks for letting me know, and if there's anything you disagree with we can discuss it further.

      Have a nice day or night.

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    • No worries and thanks for clearing these things up.

      I totally didn't check the minimum value, that was pretty stupid - I wasn't expecting the game to be off in such a way though.

      Same for the Maximized Fury, I was totally going with the in-game values there but was trying to stay in your format. It's really inconvenient to have this incoherent stuff in the game.. So I totally agree with having consistency here on those matters.

      Thanks again for your help, have a nice day, too =D

      (Edit: deleted my question since I just answered it myself, so you don't have to read that mess, haha)

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • I don't like the use of "damage per second" because it's not. You get N+1 instances in N seconds.

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    • The ticks still occur once every second though. The initial tick simply begins at t = 0 seconds. But if you would like me to change it back to "damage per tick" that's fine.

      Besides, with the whole reduced damage tick mechanic, not all ticks occur in one-second intervals. That's fine, "damage per tick" it is.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • I've been seeing your contributions around a lot, especially in verifying and updating ability descriptions and mechanics pages as the months go by. Thanks for everything you've done so far; my general sphere on this wiki is Mechanics and you've been covering a sizable portion of what I'd eventually want to get around to do.

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    • Sorry it took me this long to reply.

      No problem at all. Testing new mechanics is a major part of what keeps me interested in this game, and I want to help other players understand them. However, I would definitely encourage you and anyone else to test these things as well and share your input. It's helpful to have discussions with others (as long as they are civil) if there's any disagreement.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • Hi PsycloneMI've been looking into the damage calculations for hysteria recently and as far as I can tell they're correct for all but armored enemies (ie grineer). I've done quite a lot of testing and I keep getting theoretical values quite a bit lower than in-game values. I tried a few different approaches (assuming it's applied as finisher damage, different damage distributions, different multipliers etc) and what I think is going on is that the damage in hysteria is using the base armor level of the unit and not the scaled armor (or at least the in game damage display is).

    Here's a screenshot of some of my calcs; http://i.imgur.com/SrT5hRg.png

    The main thing to note is that I'm using the scaled armor value (150.6) for the normal attacks to match actual in-game values (as you'd expect) but to get the hysteria damage to match in-game values I'm using the base armor of 100 for the lancer unit.

    Either I'm doing something stupid and haven't realised it (which is quite possible, lol), or the hysteria weapon interaction with armor is non-standard. So I wondered if you had any insights?

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    • This reply has been removed
    • Hi PillarofIce,

      So if I'm understanding correctly, you're damaging a level-15 lancer and recording the damage values for various weapons and equipped mods. You've calculated theoretical values for each test and you've observed that the actual values are higher when using Hysteria. Using the lancer's base armor value in your calculations reduces the difference.

      I've noticed your normal attack calculations also do not match actual values well in some cases. For instance, you've calculated that you should be doing ~38 damage with an unmodified Karyst, but you're seeing 45 damage in-game.

      I'm also noticing the lack of armor modifiers that are tied to Ferrite armor resistances in your spreadsheet, unless you have them located elsewhere. For example, with Toxin damage vs. Ferrite armor you have to multiply the incoming damage by 1.25 as well as multiply the target's armor by 0.75. If this was excluded, it might be a cause for the discrepancies you're observing.

      Whenever you have the time, show me the expressions you're using to find theoretical values for normal attack damage and Hysteria's damage.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • Hi, I just saw your additions to the Hysteria page, it's nice you did this thorough testing and adds a lot to what we've known so far!

    I do, however, have a few questions. 

    1) For slam attacks, is the portion of damage that comes from the original slam attack of the equipped melee weapon affected by the mods on that weapon? Most importantly, elemental mods, they normally increase slam attack damage but were not known to have an effect on Hysteria, what's it in Hysteria?

    2) About Hysteria's innate critical damage, you wrote 10% chance for 100% damage and 15% chance for 200% damage. Did you mean "for +100% / +200% damage" respectively? That would be 200% and 300% damage. It's a bit confusing because critical damage bonuses are generally given as the multiplier (x3 or 300%), not as the additional damage bonus (+200%) in most occasions in the wiki and the game.

    3) About critical hit interaction between Hysteria and the melee weapon, the page previously claimed they both crit independently, so you could have one without the other or both together. In your version, you say that critical chance stacks additively and critical damage multiplier stack multiplicatively, which contradicts the previous statement. Based on your testing, are you really sure about that, and was the previous statement therefore outright false? If you are right, that would mean the same strike in the stance against the same enemy type (at the same enemy level for armored enemies) at the same combo counter at the same body part would, when critically hitting, only deal either 2*wCDM or 3*wCDM damage, whereas more different crit damage multipliers would be observed for the old statement. Or, since you have recorded so many hits it may be easier, the expected total chance to do any critical hit (ccte), according to your theory, is ccte=cch+ccw, according to the old theory it's ccte=cch+ccw-cch*ccw. Your measured total chance to do any critical hit is cctm=nc/nt (nc= number of critical hits ; nt = total number of hits). The standard deviation for each ccte equals sqrt(nt*ccte*(1-ccte)). The theory according to which the difference between ccte and cctm is less times its standard deviation on ccte is more likely to be true. If you don't want to do these calculations, you could share me your data and I will do them, then reply you the results. You could also give me them regardless, we both run them so we have a double check. 


    Regards,

    Mario

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    • Hi and thanks! Regarding your questions:

      1) From what I've seen, faction damage mods are the only mods that can increase the damage of a slam attack. Elemental/physical and base damage mods do not seem to have any effect regardless of whether Hysteria is active.

      Here's an Amphis with +120% Electricity damage and +280% base damage with its slam attack damage still at base values, and here's the same Amphis under the effects of Hysteria. Notice how the Charger is taking 300 x ( 3.25 / 3 ) = 325 damage from the primary attack and 40 Electricity damage + 20 Electricity damage secondaries from the status proc. Now with Smite Infested equipped, here's what the Amphis does to another Charger. Here's the same Amphis under the effects of Hysteria. Hysteria's primary slam attack damage remains the same as faction damage mods have no effect. The acquired slam attack damage, however, is increased to 40 x 1.3 = 52 Electricity damage with 52 x 0.5 x 1.3 = 34 Electricity damage secondaries from the status proc in both cases. I've edited the article to account for this information.

      2) I've been going through all of the Warframe ability articles and have noticed that all damage bonuses are expressed as percentages. Even critical damage is expressed as a percentage for weapons. To clarify and to prevent readers from assuming a damage multiplier is an additive bonus, I try to use "multiply" or "multiplier" where appropriate. Unfortunately, I forgot to do that here and has now been corrected. It should be 1x critical damage and 2x critical damage, not +100% or +200%.

      3) The previous theory made no mention of the 1x critical damage. The theory claimed that the critical chance of both the weapon and Hysteria's attacks are independent, and that when both crit simultaneously the critical damage stacks. It was also mentioned that Hysteria has a small chance to deal 3x critical damage. If a weapon has a 2x critical damage multiplier, I should expect to see 2x, 3x, 4x, and 6x critical damage hits if the previous theory were true. After 1350 observations, this is not what I'm seeing. There are only two critical damage values: 1*wCDM and 2*wCDM. If no melee weapon is equipped, wCDM = 1.


      No melee weapon equipped

      344 non-critical hits, 44 1x critical hits, 62 2x critical hits

      24% critical chance: 10% 1x, 14% 2x


      Ankyros (20% critical chance, 2x critical damage)

      251 non-critical hits, 81 2x critical hits, 118 4x critical hits

      44% critical chance: 18% 2x, 26% 4x


      Dual Cleavers (40% critical chance, 5.7x critical damage)

      158 non-critical hits, 114 5.7x critical hits, 178 11.4x critical hits

      65% critical chance: 25% 5.7x, 40% 11.4x


      If this new theory were true, then with an unmodified Ankyros equipped I should expect Hysteria's critical chance to be 0.25 + 0.2 = 45%: an ( 0.1 / 0.25 ) x 0.45 = 18% chance for 2x critical damage, and a ( 0.15 / 0.25 ) x 0.45 = 27% chance for 4x critical damage. With Dual Cleavers using a maxed Organ Shatter and True Steel, I should expect Hysteria's critical chance to be 0.25 + 0.4 = 65%: a ( 0.1 / 0.25 ) x 0.65 = 26% chance for 5.7x critical damage, and a ( 0.15 / 0.25 ) x 0.65 = 39% chance for 11.4x critical damage. The observations appear to agree with the theory.

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    • Ahh, I got it now. You were right the way you wrote the critical damage multipliers, I misunderstood that, I thought it meant 100% or 200% of the weapon's base damage, where 100% of base damage wouldn't really be a critical hit (a crit with the damage of a normal attack), but it actually meant 100% or 200% of the weapon's critical hit damage, i.e. including its own multiplier. 

      These are indeed valuable additions. I recently published an article on reddit about Hysteria concerning which weapon will deal the most damage in it under which circumstances, that was a week before the Atterax was released and I compared Dragon Nikana to Dual Ichor. When Atterax came out, the comparison became pretty much obsolete because according to our old theory of Hysteria's damage, Atterax was the best in any scenario anyways. Looking at the new formula, I'd reckon the Atterax' prime position remains, but I'm gonna re-calculate the numbers to make sure. Going to add a note of the results to the Hysteria \ Tips & Tricks page thereafter. 

      Guess we're done here so far. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly. Have a nice day! :)

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • Wanted to call you over to this thread: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:538208

    And to take a look at this page: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Tenno_Tab

    I'd very much appreciate your help.

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    • Sorry for the delay. How are the tests coming along? If you would like to try again, use a weapon that does pure corrosive damage like the Tysis. This way you simplify the test by not having to account for other damage types. Record the damage of the first shot, and wait for any corrosive procs to wear off before recording again.

      If Tenno really use Alloy armor, a 600-armor Valkyr will take 35 x ( 1 - 600 / 900 ) = 11.67 ---> 12 damage. If it's actually Ferrite armor, the same Valkyr will take 35 x 1.75 x ( 1 - 150 / 450 ) = 40.83 ---> 41 damage. If I'm not mistaken, damage values are no longer rounded down.

      Let me know what you find.

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    • Oh it's fine, the delay was no worry. But yes, the tests were - more or less - why I wanted your help on the matter. I've been too busy and have no time to play Warframe as much  as I'd like to. So it'd probably be even harder for me to find a guinea pig to get test results. But that's indeed what I think. I can't come up with exact numbers but Corrosive does seem way more effective against more heavily armored Warframes than Radiation. I'd ask one of my clan members but they usually log in at a time that I'm not available for.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • where did you get the multiples from and the formula:

    The duration in the info box with two decimal places was fine as it was. The info box and the description state that "48" is Rhino's movement speed when the power is used, which is affected by power duration. 48 x 2.57 = 123.36, 48 x 0.4 = 19.2.)

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    • View all 29 replies
    • oh and calm your tits i ask for an explination and you explode into numbers and rage (i.e., Summary Conversation could have ended in a couple of replies. Turned into "generic internet tough guy" talk n) just calmly explain yourslef and i won't bombard you with questions and supposition, plus all your numbers are based on chance, your build, good hits, etc., and as you said we can't fully rely on number posted or mention by anyone except DE, which i hope they eventually do post out actual numbers sometime soon to make it easier to mods out our frames.

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    • What's with the hyperbole? You made the assertion that my position was unjustified and unfounded, and I simply provided evidence to back up my claims. Sharing observations with you so we can discuss them does not qualify as rage. No need to pretend like I'm losing control and need to calm down after doing something as harmless as sharing data for you to look over. And yes, our previous discussion did devolve into generic internet tough guy talk on your part because you misunderstood my position in the very first reply.

      Now, if I'm testing to see what type of damage a particular power does, all that requires is to damage various surface types (shields, cloned flesh, sinew, etc.), record numbers, and narrow down the possibilities. The numbers that are displayed are not based on chance; they occur 100% of the time if a hit is made. My build affects the stats of a given power, and I always account for that (like equipping Intensify for an additional 30% power damage). I also share the damage calculations so others can see where the displayed numbers are coming from.

      However, I can say I completely agree with you that these numbers can give us an idea of how a power works, but not necessarily the full picture. There's still so much that we don't know, and like you said, it would be very helpful if power stats were included in the game as are weapon stats.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • I like you. Keep it up. All that stuff you do.

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    • Thanks. I've had most of the information collected here. I figured it was about time I contributed.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • Did you find errors with my damage calculations regarding Hysteria.  If so: what did you find?

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    • View all 11 replies
    • Sorry about the delayed reply.  My GPU went down literally 2 hours after I posted the last message.  I should have a replacement in on friday.  Feel free to go ahead with your changes to the page.  We can always adjust them later if my info isn't in error.

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    • Glad to see that you'll be getting a replacement GPU soon.

      I'll add the changes, but I'm still very curious as to why we are observing different damage values. I do know that Hysteria's damage can go haywire when playing as a client, but that does not seem to be the case here. If any of your teammates had Steel Charge equipped, that would also affect your damage output, but not to the extent that you're observing.

      Also, you might want to see this regarding Hysteria's critical chance. I compared three different weapons, and after repeated observations (900 recorded attacks), the base critical chance that's added to the crit chance of your melee weapon appears to be closer to 25% - 30% than 50%. This still needs further testing to get a better idea.

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    • A Lone Tenno
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  • Hi, welcome to WARFRAME Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Damage 2.0/Slash Damage page.

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    Enjoy! Please leave me a message if I can help with anything!

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    • A Lone Tenno
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