Talk:Ember/@comment-44873790-20200116191718/@comment-24.231.123.84-20200118214450

People complain because Ember used to be good and was unfairly nerfed, only for other frames to get buffed with those very same "OP" mechanics. Ember also has questionable stats for a "caster" frame. People complain because DE ignores 99% of feedback/suggestions, or if Odalisk vs Vauban is any proof, they keep those ideas for the "new" frame for that theme/role, and then fanboys/white knights like you jump to their defense while veterans get ignored because their favorite old-school frame is being made irrelevant for new frames that are built for the new "meta requirements" of warframe whereas old frames are left still designed for damage 1.0 warframe.

Let's start with Ember as a frame. Base ember has acceptable "mage" stats. Ember Prime gets increased Shields and Armor....neither are important to a mage, especially armor. DE has said numerous times they're aware of Ember's massive energy consumption, yet they didn't increase EmberP's base energy. They gave her Armor and Shields for her "prime stat buff"...and not even large enough to make a difference. Any armor below 300 base is not worth investing in, and nobody even relies on shield mods anymore thanks to adaptation and arcane aegis (IF you can get it, since public squad eidolons is a nightmare due to leeches). Meanwhile Saryn Prime is in the HIGHEST BASE ENERGY category of frames, which is something that should be reserved for mage frames like Volt and Ember and Loki. But Saryn is also a tank, so she gets her cake and eats it too. And Saryn doesn't even NEED high energy due to her low cost/zero upkeep for Spore, and the low cost for her entire kit overall given you only need to cast Miasma once in a while, and Molt & Toxic Lash are cheap to cast. I guess since Saryn was touched by Pablo she gets a free pass at being OP, but if a veteran complains about frame bias/imbalance suddenly we're all labeled as complaing about the DR and not about the entire frame's rework being lazy. Good job white knight sheep.

Fireball's combo mechanic could be useful if they put more work into it. First, they need a new, faster casting animation. Second, the fireball needs higher traveling speed. Third they need to unnerf the range. Fourth, bring back the lingering napalm/fire hazard effect. Fireball's AoE range was at first 5m, and it scaled up not with range but with power strength. When the lingering napalm was still a thing, you could achieve almost a 10m giant fire hazard, big enough to make Grineer Napalms jealous. WHY would they remove that mechanic now, when fireball finally does decent damage and has a reason to be used. If they'd left the lingering napalm in, with un-nerfed base range, and if its damage scaled with the fireball combo counter, Fireball would have been amazing for chokepoints/doorways and defense targets, assuming the lingering napalm's duration would get scaled by mods, since it previously did not and only lasted 10 seconds.

Overheat was "Too OP" in DE's own words, but now frames like Mesa and Gara exist (and Trinity's blessing DR is broken as well), but Ember doesn't get original Overheat, no she has a gimped version. Anyone who plays regularly in high level content/any GOOD player knows duration-based DR is better, especially since that means it STAYS at its highest value instead of wildly fluctuating. And if DE doesn't like DR skills, why is Ember, the original DR tank, the only one forced to deal with gimped DR skills that have massive fluctuation? Where are the updates to make Gara and Mesa and Trinity have to deal with the same thing?

Fireblast has been garbage since day 1, they only forced it into relevance with their lazy rework. If they want to make Fireblast for controlling ember's Immolation meter, they need to make 2 changes: 1) Lower the cost. 75 base energy is too much for how little damage it does and how often you need to use it. Either the damage should be buffed to at least 500 base, or lower the energy cost to 25. 2) Fix the hit detection. Going past 175% range causes the hit detection of fireblast to "widen" too much, leading to enemies not being hit by even small rocks that don't obscure LoS, or enemies "blocking" each other even if they're a few meters away, as long as one is behind the other, they'll sometimes not get hit.

Original WoF pre-nova-nerf was just fine. It wasn't 1hitting things but it hit 3 targets per 0.4 seconds with a 100% fire status (damage 1.0, and original WoF was 3 targets not 1 back in 2013) meaning you CC'd roughly 6 enemies every second. With decent range that could disable a lot of ranged threats while chipping away at them. Even worse, since Equinox still exists, Ember's Ult should have turned into a fire version of Maim, except have it just deal low, rapid heat damage to everything in range, with ember as the epicenter and add damage falloff. Rename it "Heatwave" or "Combustion" and give it a decent fire proc chance, so it can act as literal "fire support" by both damaging low level enemies quickly and CCing high level enemies over a wide radius.

Inferno is the laziest ult rework ever. It's not good, it's not efficient, it's just pointless michael bay explosions with lazy big damage to fool people like you into thinking it's good. It lacks synergy. The lingering flame's aura is inverted duration, it widens quicker with lower duration, but they clearly want you using a duration build for a long DoT effect, and you'd also want duration for Fireball's combo counter. The lingering flame is neither counted as a fire proc for ember's passive, nor can it proc fire procs. It can't even properly be used in Elite Onslaught since you only hit things in front of you, meaning you can never nuke a room like Equinox or Saryn can, and both of those frames bring far more utility and have far more durability/energy efficiency/build synergy and build simplicity. The only way to nuke a room properly is to face one direction, cast, turn around and cast again and get smacked with a 15 second penalty for "spamming".

Are some people complaining about not being able to "4 and 4get"? Yes, but those people have already moved to Equinox. Why are you only giving ember crap for formely being a "mindless toggle speedrun" frame? Equinox has been doing that job better for a long time now. Why should people NOT get upset about how the original DR tank has a gimped DR while other frames get that exact "OP" DR mechanic that Ember was the first to have? That's like a kid stealing another kid's toy, breaking it partially, then giving it back and acting like he did nothing wrong. Why should people not complain about DE ignoring the obvious problems and well-done fan suggestions in exchange for lazy reworks that require almost no real effort? Did the fact that Ember and Vauban, the two most in-need-of-rework outdated frames, getting reworked at the same time, not trigger any thought in your head that "Huh this might be some rushed lazy reworks"?

Also, if you think augments are the solution, please uninstall the game. Augments should add a unique twist, or something interesting like bonus loot or a new way to play, not fix a base problem with the frame that shouldn't even exist.

Your argument of "Well just because other frames are better doesn't mean she's bad" only applies when the difference is minor. They're not, there is a LARGE difference in efficiency between Ember and Saryn/Equinox. The issue is those frames are both better nukes and/or better tanks as well as have better build synergy, meaning less niche build requirements and more flexibility, as well as better energy efficiency. They require so little skill and so little management for such gigantic payout that you not only can be watching something else and barely pay attention to the game and still win, but you often have a modslot or two to spare due to their low requirements for high results, while Ember requires basically giving up all mod slots to power-based mods, due to the lack of things like Primed Streamline/Primed Stretch, that she has no flexibility. They get away with having no penalties, while Ember is forced to deal with experimental ideas that even on paper are bad, and in-game are worse.

But don't mind me I've only been an ember main since 2013 and only have 10 formas into her and only roughly 5,000+ hours into warframe as a whole (and that's with taking a year break). Clearly I, a veteran so old I should be sporting a wizard beard, whom has spent the overwhelming majority of my in warframe playing ember, no knowing compared to you, the all-mighty white knight sheep that only picked up Ember post-rework and are making a strawman argument that all complaints are about either DR or "can't 4 and 4get".