Talk:Dark Dagger/@comment-50.103.45.23-20140501063543/@comment-92.85.43.51-20140512083848

I've posted this both to Ceramic Dagger and Heat Dagger pages. I'll post it here as well since at some point, Dark Dagger DOES enter the race. Hopefully this clarifies certain points of comparisson between the three. Here is the full text:

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So, which is best dagger? Ceramic Dagger (CD) -or- Heat Dagger (HD)?

I'll try to make a bullet point comparisson and see what it turns up.


 * a) Speed vs. damage:

Doing the math, you'll notice that HD, while doing more damage then CD, is almost proportionally slower (35dmg+28.6%=45.01dmg; 0.8atkspersec+25%=1.0atkspersec).

CD=35dps [35dmg*1.0atkspersec], HD=36dps [45dmg*0.8atkspersec]

Basically, HD has a 2.9% dps lead over CD. Not much, but it exists.

Note that every melee strike staggers all enemy types now (excluding bosses), though it seems they either recover from stagger much faster then before, or their attack animation continues from where it left off in the pauses between staggers. [I've noticed sometimes getting hit with the magnetic proc while killing Ancient Disruptors with my CD - didn't stop my attack, but it DID drain my power and shield as I was staggering them over and over; Runners are also proof of this as they will explode if you don't kill them fast enough - seems they can't be stunlocked, just staggered for a bit.] Perhaps only a few enemies exhibit this pattern though. It's hard to say without more testing. It is also possible that my 1.0 attack rate wasn't enough to stunlock those particular enemies and that different enemies get stunlocked by varied attack speeds - some harder, some easier.

Verdict: Single daggers can only hit ONE target at a time, it is therefor beneficial to be able to switch targets as fast as possible. HD has 2.9% better dps, but CD can stagger and switch targets faster. It's a draw.


 * b) Physical damage allocation (especially vs. Grineer):

Considering both weapons are mostly puncture, one would probably want to emphasise this against Grineer via Sundering Strike and Rending Strike.

Here's the breakdown: CD is 90% Puncture, 10% Impact; while HD is 80% Puncture,14.9% Slash and 5.1% Impact, meaning CD gets more out of Sundering Strike and Rending Strike then HD does.

Math:

CD -> 31.5puncture_dmg+(90%+80%)*1atkspersec=85.05dps, meaning both mods added 53.6dps (rounded up).

Of course, Rending Strike's Slash bonus does not benefit CD at all, while it does benefit HD... somewhat.

Moar math time:

HD's Slash dmg is 6.7, add 60% to it from Rending Strike and you get 4 more slash dmg [6.7slash_dmg+60%=6.7+4.02=10.72slash_dmg]. Let's not forget that HD's attack speed is 0.8, meaning the Slash dmg dps bonus is 4.02slash_dmg*0.8atkspersec=3.216slash_dps, rounded down to 3.2slash_dps from Rending Srike.

HD's Puncture dmg is 36 (or 28.8puncture_dps) -> 36puncture_dmg+(90%+80%)*0.8atkspersec=36+61.2*0.8=97.2puncture_dmg*0.8=77.76puncture_dps, meaning both mods added 49puncture_dps (rounded up).

Total dps from both Sundering Strike and Rending Strike = 52.2dps.

Verdict: CD gets 53.6dps from phisical mods and HD gets 52.2dps. HOWEVER, in truth, at least 50% of the slash dmg will be ignored by high lvl Grineer due to their armor mitigating so much of the damage from non-weakness sources. Hence, it's more like CD-54dps_boost and HD-51dps_boost from the two Physical mods. CD-35base_dps, HD-36base_dps +Rending_Strike&Sundering_Strike => CD-89dps vs. HD-87dps against Grineer. CD wins by ~2.3%dps.


 * c) AoE knockdown:

CD has a 1m, 25 dmg slam attack. HD has a 5m, 90 Heat dmg slam attack that can proc.

Verdict: No contest here. HD wins.


 * d) Status chance:

CD has 10% with 1.0 atks/sec, HD has 5% with 0.8 atks/sec.

Verdict: No contest here. CD wins.


 * e) Stances:

There's currently two stances for single daggers - Homing Fang and Pointed Wind. [Since I have no personal experience with either, I'll rely on what data/opinions I've seen on those pages.]

Homing Fang works a lot like the standard dagger attack pattern - emphasising fast attacks, possibly even increasing the dagger's attack speed compared to the standard combo. High points include a 100% Slash proc on the last hit of the Lashing Forward combo (same as standard combo chain actually, never noticed that before today) and Life Eater's last hit has a special effect when used with HD - a 100% Heat proc AoE on it's last hit in the chain. Sadly, it's polarity doesn't match any current dagger's stance polarity, meaning unless you Forma, you're getting less out of it as far as mod points go.

Pointed Wind on the other hand, focuses on slower, but more powerfull attacks with some AoE capabilities. Seems to be +50% damage at the cost of reduced combo speed (no one mentions how much, sadly). High points would be Parting Edge's finisher using a AoE sweeping attack and  Striking Gale's finisher landing a head-kick on humanoids for more dmg due to head multiplier being x2. Both CD and HD have V stance polarities, matching Pointed Wind's.

Seems that each stance can either enhance the original strengths or lessen the weaknesses of either CD or HD. Homing Fang in particular works superbly with Heat Dagger, increasing it's lacking speed and even using it's Heat proc in a fluid combo - a MOST useful move to have at your disposal, but there's the problem with it's polarity. Pointed Wind would seem better for CD, as it gives it the damage it needs to compete with HD while still being decently fast due to CD's innate high speed.

Verdict: While the stances themselves are a matter of preference, there's no denying that HD wins out here over CD due to Life Eater adding that delicious and dynamic AoE Heat proc. Let's say 0.5 points to HD, and you can round up or down based on what stance you like best. :P

Tally: CD - 2 points, HD - 1.5 points

FINAL WORDS: Both daggers are so close it's really a matter of prefference. If you use slam attacks a lot, go with Heat Dagger, if you don't, go with Ceramic Dagger. If you like one's style above the other's, choose that one - it's so close that even to a minmaxer like myself, style would start to factor in. Choose what you LIKE best here, and I can't answer that one for you.

Unless you're sure you want to stick with Homing Fang. Then I highly recommend Heat Dagger, since you can AoE Heat-stun pretty much anything (that's IF it procs).

CONCLUSION: My head hurts, it's 11am and I've been doing this for ~3h on no sleep.

There's one more thing to take into account - since Melee 2.0 fiddled with all melee weapons stats, Fang Prime smokes any other Puncture Melee weapon easily (meaning Ceramic Dagger, Heat Sword and Fang atm). This means that since both CD and HD rely on Puncture dmg, they are effectively placeholders until you can get yourself a Fang Prime (or even Fang, but that's not the optimal choice so I won't mention it further. Minmaxer, remember?).

Hence, I'm selling both Ceramic Dagger & Heat Dagger, then re-crafting Dark Dagger and potatoing THAT! ( HA! :P ) It's really the only dagger with staying power right about now, and one of 3 weapons that has innate Radiation dmg. It's 0.9 speed is in between CD and HD, while it's 35dmg means it's dps is 10% lower then either CD or HD, but the fact that it's Radiation is so important against Grineer, especially when combined with Corrosive, that it outweighs anything Puncture can bring to the table regarding high-lvl Grineer, and that's really all I wanted to use CD and HD for anyway. The 10% status chance isn't too terrible either for a fast-attacking dagger. In the end, Dark Dagger wins because of Fang Prime and Radiation dmg.

TL;DR: Dark Dagger is best dagger.

Hope this can help someone besides me (came up with the conclusions as I was writing them, so this is really me figuring this stuff out for myself and sharing it in case anyone else can benefit from my points and my math).

Best of luck,

DarkVeghetta

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